[Roddilla]

There are several theories of what could have happened before the Big Bang. One such theory is that before this universe another was created and before that one another one existed giving the idea that there could be an inifinity of universes one coming after the other, one dying and one being created. I believe that there is God but lately I am having some doubts about this theory because if the universes go back in time for infinity then they may have not been created initially by someone. I know that even if they are infinite in time life must have been created by God because life cannot be created out of nothing but the above theory transfixes me.

Another idea is that the idea that the total energy of the universe is O. There is another theory that the universe originated from a singularity but someone must have caused the universe to form from this singularity despite total energy being zero?

[dwashbur]

Without the universe that expanded from the Big Bang, there is no such thing as time, at least as we know it. This is one of the reasons, even supposing that these previous universes go back ad infinitum, nothing precludes a God who created it/them because such a being would be outside the framework of time as defined by the existence of matter. Hence, God is far beyond what we can comprehend or measure or even conceive based on our time-bound experience, and not subject to any of the "laws" of the physical universe, whether this one or any previous (or subsequent) one. That's why the question "Where did God come from?" is meaningless, because we have no way of exploring or even defining anything that is outside of time.

I hope this makes sense and I hope it helps.

[Fr_Chuck]

Sorry, in Christianity, there is no "big bang" that is science.

With God, yes life was created out of nothing, thus why God is God. Nothing was there, God just though his spoken world ( or to some the Word was Jesus) created all things. It was the all life except man was created just by saying the word and it came to life, Man was created by the breath or spirit of God.

No science, if you try to justify God, or explain God and creation using science you will always doubt, since it is beyond man.

Did God create other worlds or even planets with life, perhaps, he has not told us that. No reason to doubt he may not have. Was there a universe before ours, perhaps and they were destroyed because of their evil and God started fresh.

For God, where space, and even time have no meaning, anything is possible. Man is limited since he wants to explain it within his understanding

[TUT317]

Hi Roddilla,

I think you are alluding to the universe coming from nothing theory as articulated by people such as Lawrence Krauss and others. More specifically the problem of design or coincidence implications for the theory.

Basically, the idea is centred on the fact we live in a universe that is dominated by dark energy. The ratio of dark energy to dark matter is 70/30. Krauss says this is significant because it it were any different, say 60/40 then there would have been no star formation, no formation of galaxies. The obvious outcomes is that we would not be here to talk about living in a 60/40 universe.

It therefore seems obvious that we live in a fine tuned universe. Fine tuned
Universes don't happen by accident. Someone must have done the fine tuning to allow for us to be here.

Without going into a lot of detail Krauss rejects this idea on the basis that our universe has gone through all different stages of development and the energy of empty space depends on something know as the cosmological constant. So the fine tuning actually depends on a time when the mass of the universe is in tune with the cosmological constant.

In other words,as the density of empty space expands we are fortunate enough to be in a time when the total amount of energy of empty space is zero. This ideal situation has allowed for the formation of stars and galaxies and eventually the formation of us.

Krauss says that things seem fine tuned because it just so happens we live in a time that gave the universe the opportunity to give rise to people. There are other universes were no observations are made about the uniqueness of that universe because the total amount of energy in that universe is not yet zero.

[dwashbur]

Fr_Chuck, I have to disagree. God created, yes. But there's no reason why we can study and posit something like the Big Bang as the mechanism. I agree that science can't even begin to explain God, but it can definitely tell us some things about the wonders of his handiwork.

Rodilla, if you are indeed talking about Krauss's work, I read it and found it untenable. Basically, he can only get where he does by completely redefining the word "nothing." By that approach, I could say my dog is a duck simply by redefining either "dog" or "duck." It doesn't work.

[Roddilla]

May I ask another thing? So far science has not come up with the idea of how the very first livi

[Roddilla]

May I ask another thing? So far science has not come up with the idea of how the very first cell was created no? So life as the Bible itself says must have been created directly by God

[Roddilla]

And another one to conclude: we say in physics
That in universe entropy is always increases which
Is what happened between the singularity and the
Universe. What I want to know is if this implies
That the singularity converted to the universe by
The Big Bang Reaction went off by itself because it is driven by entropy? Still the question would be who caused the formation of singularity

[ozzijoshua]

At some point in the past, it was so hot that individual atoms would have been blasted apart by the radiation in the Universe. This means that — as we come forward in time past that point — there was a point when all the nuclei and electrons in the Universe became stable, neutral atoms for the first time.
What Happened Before The Big Bang? – Starts With A Bang

[TUT317]

Rodilla, if you are indeed talking about Krauss's work, I read it and found it untenable. Basically, he can only get where he does by completely redefining the word "nothing." By that approach, I could say my dog is a duck simply by redefining either "dog" or "duck." It doesn't work.

By nothing Krauss means empty space.

One can get an appreciation of the enormity of the problems faced by physicists in understanding,'empty space'. Google: Vacuum Energy and you will see what I mean.

Tut

[TUT317]

And another one to conclude: we say in physics
that in universe entropy is always increases which
is what happened between the singularity and the
universe. What I want to know is if this implies
that the singularity converted to the universe by
the Big Bang Reaction went off by itself because it is driven by entropy? Still the question would be who caused the formation of singularity

We could probably say that the universe in its very early stages was very uniform. It had very low entropy. I guess the short answer( if there is a short answer) is that the universe later exhibited disorganization and reorganization.

Your next question might be,"To what extend does a universe with zero energy follow the laws of thermodynamics?"


These question might be better discussed in the physics forum. It also leaves the possibility that people with better knowledge than myself can help.


Tut

[Roddilla]

What I mean is that by this thoery we cannot state that God caused the change from singularity to universe?

Then there is still the idea of who created the singularity. But can this singularity have been there for ever and not created by God? Or no because then it means that still something must have caused it to change after so much time being a singularity.

[TUT317]

What I mean is that by this thoery we cannot state that God caused the change from singularity to universe?

Then there is still the idea of who created the singularity. But can this singularity have been there for ever and not created by God? Or no because then it means that still something must have caused it to change after so much time being a singularity.

What you are asking here is a metaphysical question. When you ask a religious question you are asking a metaphysical question. That's fair enough because this is a religious forum.

But yes you are right, you cannot say that God cause the universe FROM A SCIENTIFIC point of view. On the other hand, from a religious point of view you CAN SAY that God caused the Universe.

However, science doesn't address metaphysical questions. So when faced with the problem problem of who or what caused the Big Bang science ignores the 'who' part and addressed the 'what' part. The 'what' bit is actually a scientific explanation. In other words, it gives us a casual explanation for the origins of the universe.

If you read Dave's response you will see why the two explanations are incompatible. It isn't that science is deliberately ignoring the issue, it is just that metaphysics is not part of the scientific method. So you cannot play one off against the other.

Does this help?

Tut

[Roddilla]

But do you agree with my statement that only God could have created singularity and singularity could have never been for ever?

[Roddilla]

Firstly thanks a lot for your help? SO what you are saying that entropy increased and then decreased and then increased? In what way however?

[Roddilla]

Last thing I have know accepted the fact that if there was a singularity it should have been created by God; the universe is too exact to be created on its own; singularity could have never existed for ever because then the universe should have been created longer in infinity, right?

One last thing if before our universe there were others and so on for infinity what does this show about God? Could they have existed for ever without the introduction of God?

[TUT317]

But do you agree with my statement that only God could have created singularity and singularity could have never been for ever?

I agree that it is logically possible. However, I am not sure what you are asking in the second part of your question.

[TUT317]

Firstly thanks a lot for your help? SO what you are saying that entropy increased and then decreased and then increased? In what way however?

Basically I think we could say that the universe started in a highly organized state. In other words, very low entropy. As far as matter and an expanding universe is concerned we can imagine that entropy would naturally increase over time. It would seem rather strange to say that the universe started in a highly organized state and became even more highly organized. In other words, star and galaxy formation seems to bed the result of this.

The second law of thermodynamics seems to have helped in this regard. As disorganization tended to cause matter to clump this gave gravity the opportunity to reorganize matter into stars and galaxies.

I think I am right in saying that the role of gravity in the formation of the universe is still not completely understood. For example, it is difficult to explain why gravity is so weak compared to the other fundamental forces.

Tut

[TUT317]

Last thing I have know accepted the fact that if there was a singularity it should have been created by God; the universe is too exact to be created on its own; singularity could have never existed for ever because then the universe should have been created longer in infinity, right?

Yes, it is possible that a singularity could have been created by God. However, singularities are something that was only begrudgingly accept by physicists. The problem is that the mathematics associated with singularities gives rise to too many infinities. Many physicists do not like infinities as outcomes because it suggests a lack of understanding.

At the moment there are a number of competing theories that do away with the singularity. In other words, they give us an explanation for the Big Bang without the need for a singularity.

One last thing if before our universe there were others and so on for infinity what does this show about God? Could they have existed for ever without the introduction of God?

I think you are asking about a cycle of universes, but I am not sure. Are you saying that the universe will eventually contract into a Big Crunch and create another singularity? From this singularity another Big Bang will occur and so the process of expansion and contraction goes on forever? I don't see this process as needing a creator because the universe in this model generates and regenerates itself.

The idea of a Big Bang Big, Big Crunch universe is not supported by the latest evidence. What is actually is happening is that the universe is accelerating away from us ( and every other point) at an ever increasing rate. Dark energy is the dominate force and if it continues the universe will suffer a heat death. Eventually we will think we are the only galaxy in the universe. Every other galaxy will be moving away from us faster than the speed of light.


Tut

[TUT317]

Sorry double post