[zakattack]

A few years back I became a real christian. By real christian I mean not just saying I'm one, but reading the bible, praying, and trying to follow the whole law of the bible. I study the bible more then I study anything in school, so far I've got about a hundred different opinions on just about every subject. On most subjects of the bible I've chosen what I believe to be truth. The only subject that still bothers me is, Hell. I have spent hours and hours studying it, yet I'm still not sure. One thing I do know is I can't believe in enternal torture. One time I burnt myself in the shower then I thought, God would give that to somebody times 1,000 for ever and ever? I know that's not truth. Anybody that thinks they have good evidence please share it so I can finally be at peace.

[Fr_Chuck]

No, you think that can not be a truth, because you are using mans logic not God's truth.

First if there is no hell, then Jesus did not have to come to earth to save everyone and be a sacrifice for us. So by denying hell, you are saying Jesus wasted his time.

It does not matter if hell is a lake of fire where satan and his demons go or if it is just a place where you will be without any of God's love ( far worst since that is mental and emotional hell also)

It is obvoius that hell is real, since 1. it is in the bible and it tells us it is so. 2nd, of course it is real since God felt it was important enough for Jesus to die so we would not go there.

Next you have it ALL wrong, God does not do that to you, you do it to yourself for not accept him. Next you beleivev for some reason that all mankind does not deserve that punishment, but we all do, it is only the love of Christ that keeps us all from it.

Next please be careful using your own opinon on every issue, since if you don't take the bible as a whole, and try to do it all on a few verses, you will get more confused.

[zakattack]

I never said I didn’t believe in hell, I know there is a hell. I said I didn’t believe in eternal torture. I know man deserves whatever punishment God seems fit; we all fall short of the glory of God. I believe eternal torture is not what God seems fit. What about passages like proverbs 21:28 "A false witness will perish, and whoever listens to him will be destroyed forever." Not burn in a pit but be destroyed forever. Or Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I know there are many passages about weeping and gnashing of teeth and what seems to be eternal torture. I've read evidence that ties all that together to lead to total destruction as punishment, not eternal torture. Same with universalism. I guess this is not a question because I know I won't get an answer that can't be this proven, but a discussion. Like I said if anybody has what he or she thinks to be truth on this subject please post.

Now To Fr Chuck, I appreciate your post but you apparently got the wrong idea about what I said. At the end of your post you said I said should take the bible as a whole. I say the same to you. These Bible verses are two out of many that challenge the idea of eternal torture. I could understand eternity without out Gods presence being a fit punishment like you mentioned, but eternal physical pain is just disgusting in my mind. It doesn’t agree with the rest of the scriptures. I have questions about free will to. Didn’t God harden pharos heart?

[elizabethpayge]

I once heard someone ask this question... "How does your spirit/soul burn?"

Just a thought...

[Fr_Chuck]

We must remember in "examples" and visions we get, it comes from man at the time of Christ or before. In that they are saying what can best to described as to what they know. If they saw a taxi cab, how could they describe it in writing in 30 AD.

This is even part of our trouble today in understanding, if one does not know about milling with a stone, or hooking up oxen, or fishing as done at the time, how can be really grasp the meaning.

Often it has been considered a burning of the spirit also, such as just having to live without the closness of God's spirit, but how could that even be explained in our terms, since we don't know what the fullness of Gods closeness is.

[mrsmoz]

Question.
Why would someone be sent to hell?? Because they don't believe in God? Or because they have done wrong, like murder?
:)
X

[Fr_Chuck]

It is the sin that sends them there, we are all sinful and every person on earth deserves the punishment, evil thoughts, and the wrong we all do daily.

It is what we do to be forgiven, and that is the faith in God that brings that forgiveness.

[mrsmoz]

So if you have sined and you believe in god its OK because he will forgive you anyway so you won't go 2 hell? :)

[Fr_Chuck]

In very simple terms yes, it invovles more than believing he exists, even Satan and all the demons know he exists, it is the belief in him to forgive you.

[Alpha_Male81]

Father Chuck, you are inspirational, do u know any good websites that I can use to further educate myself on Christianity?

[zakattack]

All right it seems were getting a little off topic, again, please post about what you think about the subject of hell (please read my earlier posts before you do so I don't get already read info)

[Barrabas]

1. It would be best to be distinct when you say you are a Christian from knowing a lot about Christianity - From what you said above, YOU chose what you believe to be true... but Christianity is not about what YOU categorize as a truth or not.

2. If heaven feels like being with the one you love and hell is being violently separated from your love - can't eternal torture be the same? Yearning so much to be with the one you love but you can't.


2. Believe me, Satan definitely wants you to believe that there's no such thing... that God will not allow hell and eternal damnation... it makes his job easier. ;)

[Capuchin]

How about if I don't believe in God, but I believe that if there is a god, he will forgive me?

[zakattack]

Barrabs, again like I said before I believe in hell, not enternal torture/damnation. You said "YOU chose what you believe to be true... but Christianity is not about what YOU categorize as a truth or not" I say the same to you. Open your bible sometime and look at scripture that clearly contradicts the eternal hell theroy. I already mentioned some before. I need evidence not peoples opinions. And is scaring the hell into you what God wants to be done? A majority of Christians join out of fear not love (me as esample). I don't search myself for truth, but the word.

[JoeCanada76]

I even remember a Catholic prayer which said Jesus died and decended into hell and on the 3rd day he rose and accended into heaven.

Then later years they changed the wording from hell to The dead. Jesus died and decended to the dead and on the 3rd day he. Well you get my point.

Even in the past 10 years wording of the bible, wording of prayers have changed over the years. I would think that definitions and meanings for certain words have changed as well.

I remember when I was a teenager I watched a regular church program talking about today's issues, even ordered a monthly magazine. Anyway, the issue about hell and defintions of hell and how it has changed over the years.

I forget the programs name, but hell the meaning or definition of this word The Grave.. So when we die we all go to hell in this programs definition. If Jesus went to hell, that means that we will follow suit. Hell is another word for the grave.

When you think of it that way, or when I think of it. This makes sense, but and there is a big BUTT. What about the fire and brimstone. Gnawing and other things. Why would the bible mention things like that if there was no real hell.

[nindzha]

I think that eternal torture would be the worst case scenario for every human.
I am not a Christian, but I believe in the same God, a just God and I think he as a creator wouldn't allow things like that to happen. It is not logical to create something and than when it gets wrong, you don't destroy it but condem it to eternal torture.
I know that people will say that we can t understand the Gods will, that is true to some point, but even such a complicated "being" like God has some logical and simple acts.

My interpretation of hell and heaven was or perhaps still is. Is that this was "made up" just to manipulate the crowd or if we put it nicely to get some morality in the people.
So be good and you will be promised an eternal paradise, be bad and you fill fry in hell.
I think now as the population is so big and liberalized this doesn't work any more.

[ordinaryguy]

Alright it seems were getting a little off topic, again, please post about what you think about the subject of hell

I'd sooner believe in eternal oblivion than eternal torment. But there's also the possibility that everybody has to go to heaven whether they like it or not. To mean-spirited, selfish people, it would be hell being surrounded by sweetness and light all the time.

But it sounds like your mind is made up in favor of eternal oblivion rather than eternal torment, so what are you asking? For proof texts from the Bible that hell is eternal torment? There may be some that could be interpreted that way, but I doubt if you'd find them convincing--I certainly don't. I find the whole "proof text" approach to the Bible silly and irrelevant.

[Retrotia]

zakattack,

I found this article you may find interesting. Is Hell For Real? Somehow, with the "hell" experiences, they do coincide with Biblical passages. Can it be that hell is just short of a scorcher--like agonizing discomfort from the heat?

[Saby2284]

If you Don't Believe in Eternal Torture Then you Don't Believe in Hell. There are 150 Verses in the bible that Talks about Hell. And Most Of the Verses say that hell is Eternal Torture. God Didn't Make Hell For Us He Made it for The devil and his Demons. But What Adam and Eve Did We are Sinners. That's Why Jesus Died on the Cross for Our Sins. Sorry I may Be a little Late on Answering your Question.. But If you Need any Other Questions About Christianty Iam Here.. :O)

[Morganite]

A few years back I became a real christian. By real christian I mean not just saying I'm one, but reading the bible, praying, and trying to follow the whole law of the bible. I study the bible more then I study anything in school, so far I've got about a hundred different opinions on just about every subject. On most subjects of the bible I've chosen what I belive to be truth. The only subject that still bothers me is, Hell. I have spent hours and hours studying it, yet I'm still not sure. One thing I do know is I can't belive in enternal torture. One time I burnt myself in the shower then I thought, God would give that to somebody times 1,000 for ever and ever? I know thats not truth. Anybody that thinks they have good evidence please share it so I can finally be at peace.

Congratulations on being a 'real' Christian.

There is so much written in the Bible about Hell that even a real Christian can become confused. Taking everything written in the Bible at its literal face value will lead anyone into great difficulties. For example, in Deuteronomy 32.22 God says:

" ... a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

According to this passage, if it is taken literally, God's anger (and, therefore, God hmself) will burn in Hell, and in the 'lowest Hell' at that. Also, the same fire will burn up the easrth, and not content with burning up the earth, this hellish fire will also burn up the foundation of the mountains.

When the Old Testament is put back into its oiriginal Hebrew it becomes readily apparent that more than one third of it is written in poetry. Poets use simile to explain what something is like or similar to. For instance, a child's cheeks may be said to be 'as rosy as an apple,' or even to have cheeks of apple, but if you bite into them (as a literalist might) you will find flesh, not apple. Burning with anger has nothing to do with fire, not even when that anger burns in the lowest Hell.

When the Bible says "You shall mount up on wings of eagles ... " you must not expect to either grow eagles wings to facilitate your flight, nor to be transported to the heights on the back of a giant eagle.

Fire (Hebrew - 'esh) can mean the ignited combustible gasses released by heat, but it can also mean poetically "God's anger." Note also in the passage how the extent and ranhe of God's anger is expressed:

"In the underworld, in the upper world, and even the rocks of the mountains will be visited with the fire of my anger" What God is seen to say is that if you make him angry, there is no place you can go to escape his anger. It is not a threat that those who invoke his anger will be consumed by fire.

Verses 23 to 26 continue the theme thus:

"I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling [also] with the man of gray hairs.
I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men"

Let's make a list at the ways God is going to deal with those who make him cross.

1. They will be surrounded with insescapable 'fire.'
2. They will be shot through with arrows.
3. They will 'burn' with hunger (more burning)
4. They will be burned with fierce heat (yet more burning)
5. Wild beasts will eat them.
6. Venomous serpents will bite them (fiery serpents?)
7. They shall die by the sword (a cutting remark!)
8. They shall die of absolute fear.
9. They will also be scattered so that their whereabouts will become unknown and no one will ever remember them.


I supposed that if you have to choose between burning in hell or being burned in some other place, shot, famished, burned again, eaten by wild beasts, killed by snakes, being slaughtered by the sword, and dying of terror, then the Hell thing might be the least worrisome. However, what we have here is a patent example of poetic hyperbole amounting to overkill. Mosehe makes the point about how unwise it is to tweak the nose of the Holy One of Israel (AKA The Living God) or set up in opposition to him and his operations.

For those who think God is without passion, this passage is a real difficulty, because of its open passion and the profound strength of feling God expresses against apostates.

In 2 Samuel 22.6 David complains: "The sorrows of hell compassed me about ... " He delineates hell as a place of sorrows, and so it must be, for it is apparent that, to the Hebrews, Hell was a place where God was not. David has done bad things and god has withdrawn his face from him. Therefore he concludes that he is now in Hell.

The sangine outcome is that in Hell David prayed to God and God came out of his house and helped him. Hell, then, is not necessarily a place of eternal misery, more of a condition that the godfearing who lose the presence of God experience. The intersting account penned by David's hand of exactly how God rescued him is recorded in the verses following verse 6. As you read it, ask yourself if it is not purely poetic in nature and imagery, or whether we are to accept it as a literal historical accojunt of the events that transpired after David's plea.

8 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven moved and shook, because he was wroth.
9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness [was] under his feet.
11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 And he made darkness pavilions round about him, dark waters, [and] thick clouds of the skies.
13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled.
14 The LORD thundered from heaven, and the most High uttered his voice.
15 And he sent out arrows, and scattered them; lightning, and discomfited them.
16 And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.

There is much more, but this is a start in helping you to settle the problem of Hell. The present imagery of hell held in mind by the unfortunate is a largely mediaeval representation intended to keep people in check through fear. However, perfect love casteth out fear, and with it goes the devils roasting the unfortunates in a fiery domain. That is highly imaginative and creative, but it is poetry and not a literal description of the state of those who do not stand by God's side.

Hell is also described as being under our feet: " ... as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" Ifr anyone has a map of where to begin digging to locate its subterranean rooms and passageways... you get my drift.
ThePsalmist says: "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God"

We should take note that the Hebrew word 'showle' has many meanings, but also that none of these definitions involve fire.

'showle' or 'sheol' can mean any of the following:

underworld
grave
hell
pit
the underworld
the abode of the dead
place of no return
without praise of God
wicked sent there for punishment
righteous not abandoned to it
of the place of exile
extreme degradation in sin

Thus we can plainly see that 'Hell' is a catch-all that is employed to suggest a wide variety of meanings and conditions. Poetry often makes bad theology, especially when it deals with nasty things. Poetry makes much better theology when it deals with the positive attributes of God. We must know the difference.

I do expect that some literalist will tajke me to task - gently and wihtout anger - for this exposition. However, I have shown ferom the Bible soemthing that is very important for Chtristians to understand, nothwithstanding the often angry rhetoric about Hell and who is going there eventually, found at other points in the scriptures.

To prepare to field objections in this connection, I recommend that you (and they) study closely the Hinnom Valley to the south of the Holy City as it was at the time of Christ and see if you can detect a source for the florid imagery often used in descriptions of Christian concepts of Hell. Perhaps nothing, paart from concepts of Heaven, demonstrate the importance for us in coming to understand the Bible than to 'think within the Book,' meaning to look much deeper than the surface of the printed page. The Bible is too profound a set of documents for anyone to know what it is about who only reads it as a tool to their devotions. Homiletic and devotional uses unaccompanied by proper study into language, background, and sitz im leben, etc. will lead astray faster than giant eagles can lift you to the mountaintops..



M:)RGANITE