[5lomo]

Big fan of forums and I don't know why I didn't think of this before because it's difficult to tell the true story in real life.

Forgive the short prologue here, but it's relevant to the story...

At 17, the love of my life was torn away when her family moved. After that, I made many mistakes out of anger and hurt, including dating a few let's say unsavory women over the next couple of years.

One day I ran into the love of my life and immediately made the decision to move to where her family lived (Utah... ). After a year out there, I really needed to start college, but couldn't or wouldn't do it in Utah, so I invited my girl to move back to California with me. She declined as her parents were getting older, and so I made the move expecting to see her again soon.

That was the last time I saw her.

When I got back to California, I got into school and started making plans. Unfortunately, one of those unsavory women from my past had other ideas. She had always been jealous that I loved someone else, and was bent on keeping me in her life this time.

So one night she set her plan to get pregnant in motion, and made sure she got her way by getting me as drunk as possible. I knew that night what she was up to that night and I've spent nearly every day since feeling like I failed. That was 17 years ago. She admits in a voice mail message that I still listen to, that she did it on purpose.

Fact of the matter is I was raped, a term I can't stand using, but am finally coming to the realization is the truth. I immediately went on a destructive drinking binge, horrified, embarrassed and destroyed by the fact I'd have to tell the woman I've always loved that I got someone else pregnant. Which I did in a letter from jail just weeks before the child would be born. I told her to move on and now sober and in jail, tried to do the same.

Then the baby was born. I met her the first time while in jail and my heart broke again. I made the decision that when I got out, I'd try to be a good father. Somehow it made sense to be with the woman that raped me, to try and be a normal family.

For the next two years, things got progressively worse, as the mom's drug use worsened, eventually leading to daily arguments and an invite to move out from her grandmother, whom we lived with. I loved my daughter, and despite our closeness, I was extremely unhappy/angry being tied to the mother.

So at the age of 21, I just left. I got into a great university, graduated and moved away without a word. Seven long years of depression led me to one conclusion: I'd never find any happiness running away from my child. So, on her 9th birthday, I surprised her with a visit. To my surprise, she now had two younger sisters who I'd soon learn have different fathers who are brothers.

I still have a hard time fathoming how a child deals with that, but I immediately fell in love with all three of them. I asked my daughter if she wanted me to move back, she said yes, and two weeks later I was back in her life.

For the next three years, things were very good and very bad. The younger girls began calling me dad, which of course I loved, but my daughter insisted on calling me by my first name. The mother fell into drugs yet again, and my daughter eventually lived with me for about a year. We became very close and everyone enjoyed seeing us together because we just had fun.

Until one night I found her on the computer playing a virtual role playing game she had begun playing awhile before that. I have always kept one eye on her computer use, but this night, I saw her typing some of the most graphic sexual language I've ever seen, basically having virtual sex with I assume boys from her school.

I kept my cool, slept on it for the night, and the next day when she wanted to log back on to the game, I simply said "I don't think you should play that game anymore."

That was the end of our relationship. She called her mom, moved back home 20 minutes later and has uttered less than 100 words to me since; that was 4 years ago. I'm told she doesn't like me because I drink at times (very rarely, but I understand her aversion to drugs and alcohol considering her mother lost her to the state twice while I was gone those seven years).

Now she's in and out of therapy. Writes terrible things about me on her blog, worst of all that she tells me all the time why she is mad at me, yet she never has. I get that she was embarrassed, even though I don't see how I could have handled the situation more delicately. I get that she has some abandonment issues because I "left her". I can't really see myself telling her that her mom raped me so I left her mom, even though I feel like it every single day because she loves to talk about how her mom is her hero and best friend.

And recently, I read on her blog that she had sex recently. I don't know that to be true, and I really hate "learning" about her on her blog, but we have no other communication and it fills some hole I guess. My birthday and Father's Dar recently passed, and I am not even acknowledged. Same as last year and the year before. I'll definitely get ideas from her mom what she wants for her birthday and Christmas though, which is about the extent of our "communication".

Through all this time, her youngest sister and I have grown a lovely relationship. She believes me to be her dad, calls me such and treats me the way I deserve frankly. I know that's probably another issue for my daughter to deal with, but I'm not going to separate myself from her sisters to make her feel better.

Lastly, when I first came back, I could immediately tell something was wrong with each of them. I know for a fact my middle daughter was molested, my youngest one was almost drowned in a tub she was left in and was very skittish, and that the three were all taken away on two separate occasions by the state due to the mother's drug use.

From research in other forums, "histrionic personality disorder" nails my daughter to a tee. My middle daughter is scared to death to leave her mother's side, who proudly calls her her "partner in crime". Disgusting.

The one saving grace is that my youngest daughter has really seemed to adjust much better than her sisters, a fact I can only attribute to the fact that I've been in her life since she was 4 and have been able to provide some stability for her. When I visit home to see my family, she's the only one that ever has a desire to go along.

So, I'm a bit stuck. I used to be comfortable that when I left long ago, I'd find my daughter when she turned 18 and fix things then. Of course that was the mind of a terribly misled, angry, disillusioned young man. As I get older, I can feel the panic setting in that things are never going to improve. I don't bad mouth the mother, but she has very few redeeming qualities and as their hero, role model and daily inspiration, they don't have much room for growth.

I recently received news that the love of my life, who was married with three children, was now divorced. We visited and other than the fact it seems impossible for us to be together, things were exactly as they always had been. I don't know that I could run away to be with her (we've discussed it) and leave my children, but at this point in time, I'm having a hard time maintaining the natural pride and loyalty I have for them. One could care less that I exist, one goes out of her way to ignore my existence, up to deleting harmless Facebook comments like "What's your new dog's name?".

I know I'm not alone in this, a sad fact that has recently given me some odd comfort that someone actually understands because I certainly can't talk about it with people I know who have no better insight than "keep doing what you're doing".

So I'm here to ask you who've been or are going through similar pains. What to do, what can be done, will time heal all, do children in these situations have the ability to grow out of it, am I the target of pain for all the wrong reasons, should leaving them be an option, do children really need fathers??

I'm starting to doubt something that is so obviously true...

[steph2011]

How old is yor daughter? If you feel she is old enough maybe you can try telling her the truth and how you feel about all of this. make her feel like an adult( age depending). There are a lot of emotional obstacles that she will have to overcome in order for you too to have a healthy father daughter relationship. Number one thing always be there for her no matter what. Don't tell her you will be just be.

[5lomo]

How old is your daughter? If you feel she is old enough maybe you can try telling her the truth and how you feel about all of this.,make her feel like an adult( age depending). There are a lot of emotional obstacles that she will have to overcome in order for you too to have a healthy father daughter relationship. Number one thing always be there for her no matter what. Don't tell her you will be just be.

Sorry, she's turning 16 next month.

I braced myself long ago for telling her the truth someday, but it's so ugly and hurtful to her or about her mother, that it feels like it would do more damage than good. Like I said, she's histrionic, meaning she throws huge tantrums over little things.

I'm sure that's partially her way of deflecting things and putting a buffer between her and reality, but I still wonder if a) the truth will help her and b) if the truth is going to make her like me more or less. In a way, I'm not trying to make her like me more because I know she loves me. I just want to do what's healthiest/best for her so that one day she can let me back her in her life.

People tend to say time/distance is best, but all that's gotten me is four hard years without her, and counting.

Thanks for reading, and the advice.

[Gamed]

Ok for YOU to be happy you need to get your daughter back tell her what happened to you. To be honest if I were you id run away with the love of my life after I repair me and my daughters relationship

[Mobley119]

I'm sorry but your daughter has no reason to want you in her life. You abandoned her. You didn't abandon her mother, you abandoned her. That's the way she sees it, which is the truth. You loved yourself over her.

Your daughter is not histrionic, she's just another child who was left by their father and now has to fill a void in her life, which leads them to feel and/or be out of control. Little girls get themselves esteem from their fathers. They get a lot of themselves respect from fathers too. Fathers are SO important in a girls life. It's few and far between girls who can overcome negligence or abuse from them.

You should have gotten full custody of her, gotten her away from her mother who is obviously toxic, but you didn't because you were selfish. You shouldn't have just let her go back to her mothers just because she wanted to, you should have sat her down and explained to her what she was doing, why it was wrong, and that she should have more respect for herself. Her mother, and you, have screwed her up eight ways to Sunday. And now your considering abandoning her again because she doesn't like you, which she has every reason not to? You should be fighting tooth and nail to be back in her life, to show her that you love her. She's your child.

Why don't you try being completely honest with her? Don't play the blame game or do the woe is me, but explain to her what happened, how GLAD you are she exists, how it KILLS YOU EVERYDAY how awful of a father you've been to her, and how you want to start your relationship over.

Sorry that I'm being harsh but fathers who abandon their children is just something that gets to me. I don't know a single person whose been abandoned by their father that isn't royally screwed up, even if they had amazing mothers and step fathers. There's something that really messes a person up knowing that their own parent doesn't want or love them. It makes them think, "if they don't, who will?"

[Mobley119]

Also I think if you ever want to have a real relationship with your daughter you guys need to go to counseling together. She might not want to at first but I'd bet you once you guys did her own personal counseling and her behavior would improve a lot.

[steph2011]

Also I think if you ever want to have a real relationship with your daughter you guys need to go to counseling together. She might not want to at first but I'd bet you once you guys did her own personal counseling and her behavior would improve a lot.

My father was rarely around and I am not screwed up. It's how she chooses to handle it. A 16 year old is old enough to choose the way they act.

[LadySam]

Sorry that I'm being harsh but fathers who abandon their children is just something that gets to me. I don't know a single person whose been abandoned by their father that isn't royally screwed up, even if they had amazing mothers and step fathers. There's something that really messes a person up knowing that their own parent doesn't want or love them. It makes them think, "if they don't, who will?"

I'm sorry, but I will have to disagree with you here.
This does not apply to every child and there is more than one form of abandonment, from emotional, to physical to financial.
I raised both my children single handed, one from three months of age, she is now 21 and is a well adjusted, kind and respectful young lady. Those are not her only attributes.
My son 23 is the same and very self-sufficient.
A few of their friends whose fathers were a constant in their lives are screwed up. Go figure.

I do however agree with you in your statement that the Op should have sought custody already knowing of the mothers drug use.

To the Op, what is done is done, you can't change any of that. Do I think you were wrong not to fight tooth and nail for your child when she was younger and being made a ward of the state because of her mothers' behavior, yes, I absolutely do.
But you can't change that now.
You can only move forward and try to repair things as best you can.
Right now she is not making herself available to talk to you, but she is young.
As far as talking to her and telling her the truth, you can do that if you want, but I seriously doubt she will thank you for making her mother look bad in her eyes.
You've already said "her mother is her hero" as sad as that is (given the circumstances) you are not likely to change her mind.
Children grow up, they mature (we hope) and see things through an adults eyes at some point in their life, this is when her mind will change, if it is going to change.
I am not saying give up on her, I don't think a parent should ever do that.
But you may have to back up and give her space and not push.

As far as the incident with the computer, you let her have it her way and simply waltz back to her mothers. She was in your house and should have been expected to abide by your rules. I think you missed the opportunity to talk to here about that situation.

Don't pester her, but let sleeping dogs lie and simply try to start over.
Ask her to dinner, if she accepts good, if not give a little more time, talk about starting over fresh without rehashing past mistakes.

[JudyKayTee]

Sorry that I'm being harsh but fathers who abandon their children is just something that gets to me. I don't know a single person whose been abandoned by their father that isn't royally screwed up, even if they had amazing mothers and step fathers. There's something that really messes a person up knowing that their own parent doesn't want or love them. It makes them think, "if they don't, who will?"

I think the OP is reaping what he sowed - and, for the record, if a WOMAN posted she had too much alcohol and got pregnant the majority of the AMHD regulars would jump all over her. How is this any different? And for the record - I'm an adult survivor of rape. You weren't raped. Maybe she took advantage. She didn't rape you - unless, of course, she slapped you around, tore at your clothing, forced your penis into her vagina.

At one time he cared more about himself than he did about his child. Now she cares more about herself than she does about him - and he's concerned. How does he get things together with his daughter? HE goes to counselling and tries to figure himself out before he attempts to "fix" anyone else. If the child is in a dangerous situation then he moves for custody. Maybe he can control her. Maybe he can't. I don't see anyone doing anything to help "straighten" this child out - but I see a lot of complaining and moaning.

On the same subject - my husband died. Talk about losing someone you planned to spend your life wife! That did not give me license to stop caring about other people or engage in risky behavior.

As far as this is concerned: "I don't know a single person whose been abandoned by their father that isn't royally screwed up, even if they had amazing mothers and step fathers. There's something that really messes a person up knowing that their own parent doesn't want or love them. It makes them think, "if they don't, who will?" - we must travel in different circles. I know a LOT of people who for whatever reason have raised children alone, both mothers and fathers. The children are NOT "royally screwed up." We have amazing people who post on AMHD, strong men and women, single and loving, caring parents. Their children aren't "screwed up."

I've seen both mothers AND fathers simply walk away, leaving the other parent to take up the slack and do it very well.

[Mobley119]

I'm sorry if anyone took what I said the wrong way. I should have expressed more that not all children of a parent who abandoned them are messed up. I am being honest that every person I know who has been abandoned by their father has emotional/personal issues because of it though. All of them are doing fine from the outside, but they all are fraught with deep scars that effect their relationships and self esteem.

[5lomo]

And now your considering abandoning her again because she doesn't like you, which she has every reason not to? You should be fighting tooth and nail to be back in her life, to show her that you love her. She's your child.

Why don't you try being completely honest with her? Don't play the blame game or do the woe is me, but explain to her what happened, how GLAD you are she exists, how it KILLS YOU EVERYDAY how awful of a father you've been to her, and how you want to start your relationship over.

I don't want to "abandon" her again, but I have barely spoken to her in 4 years. It's true, I did leave her and probably deserve what I'm getting. But if that's true, does it matter that I'm "here", living in the same town?

I definitely should have tried harder, but I have written her many long letters telling her how sorry I am that I left, how proud of her that I am, how little things in life remind me of her, etc. She's just tuned me out of her life, which is certainly sad because of all the people in her life, I'm positive I can help her the most (and yes, screw her up the most, too, I guess).

I think the OP is reaping what he sowed - and, for the record, if a WOMAN posted she had too much alcohol and got pregnant the majority of the AMHD regulars would jump all over her. How is this any different? And for the record - I'm an adult survivor of rape. You weren't raped. Maybe she took advantage. She didn't rape you - unless, of course, she slapped you around, tore at your clothing, forced your penis into her vagina.

At one time he cared more about himself than he did about his child. Now she cares more about herself than she does about him - and he's concerned. How does he get things together with his daughter? HE goes to counselling and tries to figure himself out before he attempts to "fix" anyone else. If the child is in a dangerous situation then he moves for custody. Maybe he can control her. Maybe he can't. I don't see anyone doing anything to help "straighten" this child out - but I see a lot of complaining and moaning.

I'm just saying she has admitted to my face she got pregnant on purpose and had a premeditated plan to do so. I stated in my first post that "rape" is a stupid word for it, but in the legal sense, that's what it was. And believe me there are emotional repercussions I've never gotten over, but I'm not here to "complain and moan" about that right now. I'm sure if I told a woman who was raped to stop complaining and moaning, that would go over well, though.

You are right that I cared more about myself than my daughter at one point, but it was a terribly confusing and troubled situation that I wasn't equipped to handle. For one moment imagine a woman having the expectation and responsibility of having to be with her "rapist" in order to be a mother.

I'm not here to cry and complain, I just want some insight from others. But please keep things in the right perspective. For all I know, the mother has pulled this same stunt THREE times and is the hero in this sad story. There is more than one victim here, and as much as I have taken responsibility for my part in this mess, I am still one of them.

Either way, I respect your opinions, all will take them into consideration.

I'm sorry if anyone took what I said the wrong way. I should have expressed more that not all children of a parent who abandoned them are messed up. I am being honest that every person I know who has been abandoned by their father has emotional/personal issues because of it though. All of them are doing fine from the outside, but they all are fraught with deep scars that effect their relationships and self esteem.

My parents split when I was one. I never thought "my dad left me", but to this day, there are still issues. I was raised by another man who I consider my father more than my real father, but I still love, respect and care about my father.

I don't know what issues remain, but when I was 19 at the time all this happened, I was definitely a deep mess and probably played a part in me leaving, but as mentioned, I don't see how I could ever have stayed given the circumstances.

And for the record, the mother's dad was out of the picture most of her life, as well, thanks to her mother's drug use. So this is at least a 2-3 generation thing.

I can take the criticisms, but mostly I'm looking for solutions to try and help stop this from happening another generation.

[JudyKayTee]

I'm just saying she has admitted to my face she got pregnant on purpose and had a premeditated plan to do so. I stated in my first post that "rape" is a stupid word for it, but in the legal sense, that's what it was. And believe me there are emotional repercussions I've never gotten over, but I'm not here to "complain and moan" about that right now. I'm sure if I told a woman who was raped to stop complaining and moaning, that would go over well, though.

Please share more info about your rape in the "legal sense."

You having too much to drink (whether it is or isn't some sort of diabolical plan) and then having intercourse and impregnating someone is an insult to every rape victim who DIDN'T have too much to drink, followed by intercourse.

Sorry - I'm not buying it. Pregnant by choice? Yes. She took advantage? Yes. Rape - no way.

But I'm open to your explanation.

[5lomo]

Please share more info about your rape in the "legal sense."

You having too much to drink (whether it is or isn't some sort of diabolical plan) and then having intercourse and impregnating someone is an insult to every rape victim who DIDN'T have too much to drink, followed by intercourse.

Sorry - I'm not buying it. Pregnant by choice? Yes. She took advantage? Yes. Rape - no way.

But I'm open to your explanation.

Didn't really want to turn this into a defense, but you seem to think only women can be raped, so:

http://www.aboutlawschools.org/resources/glossary/r.asp

Sex with a woman, other than a wife, without her consent. But many states have changed this basic definition to include sex with a minor (with or without consent; also known as statutory rape), sex with a man without his consent, or exempting men who force their wives to have sex.

The unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. 2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. 3.

I knew exactly what she was up to and had repeatedly told her NO. Over the course of many hours, she made sure to continue getting me drunk AND get conveniently stranded at my house. Not to mention she admitted to my face that she not only stopped taking her pill, but that she wasn't going to take no for an answer tells me: I WAS RAPED!

Pretty sure NO means NO, in any language, in any country and by EITHER SEX.

Am I happy I won this argument?

No I am not. My problem for writing my post still remains. Next time, please provide a more productive answer than attacking a victim, whether you agree they are a victim or not.

Thank you.

[joypulv]

You weren't raped. You were seduced and deceived.
Men and women everywhere who have been violently coerced or overpowered are the ones who have been RAPED.
You were with her. You allowed yourself to get drunk with her, she didn't 'get you as drunk as possible.' Where's your responsibility, your decision making power? If she had tied you up, put a funnel down your throat, and poured booze down it, possibly that could be called an act beyond your control.
Therefore I'm not interested in the rest of the story.

[joypulv]

Where does JudyKayTee say that she thinks only women can be raped??

[JudyKayTee]

Didn't really want to turn this into a defense, but you seem to think only women can be raped, so:

Legal dictionary | Law Glossary of terms | Letter R

Sex with a woman, other than a wife, without her consent. But many states have changed this basic definition to include sex with a minor (with or without consent; also known as statutory rape), sex with a man without his consent, or exempting men who force their wives to have sex.

the unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse. 2. any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. 3.

I knew exactly what she was up to and had repeatedly told her NO. Over the course of many hours, she made sure to continue getting me drunk AND get conveniently stranded at my house. Not to mention she admitted to my face that she not only stopped taking her pill, but that she wasn't going to take no for an answer tells me: I WAS RAPED!

Pretty sure NO means NO, in any language, in any country and by EITHER SEX.

Am I happy I won this argument?

No I am not. My problem for writing my post still remains. Next time, please provide a more productive answer than attacking a victim, whether you agree they are a victim or not.

Thank you.

Please put quotes in quotes. I had to read the site in order to find out your words, the site's words - also please don't tell anyone on AHMD how to answer. If you want only people who will agree with you talk to your friends or a therapist or, perhaps, Doctor Phil.

Do I think you won the argument? I wasn't aware there was an argument. I thought it was a discussion. I'm not aware that anyone attacked you. I am aware that people do not agree with you or believe you handled your situation badly.

"I knew exactly what she was up to and had repeatedly told her NO. Over the course of many hours, she made sure to continue getting me drunk AND get conveniently stranded at my house. Not to mention she admitted to my face that she not only stopped taking her pill, but that she wasn't going to take no for an answer tells me: I WAS RAPED!"

1 - She "continued getting [you] drunk"? I'm a female. I can't tell you how many men have tried that same ploy with me with absolutely no success. Unless she was holding a pistol on you ...

2 - She "got stranded"? All cabs stopped running, all of your/her friends didn't answer the phone? There was only one sleeping place (and I've slept alone, on the floor) at your residence? I've heard that one before, too.

3 - "She admitted to [your] face that [B]she not only stopped taking her pill" - see #1 and 2 above.

4 - "She wasn't going to take no for an answer?" So she grabbed your penis and rammed it into her vagina and then forced you to ejaculate?

And I agree that this is not offering you any legal or relationship help.

[5lomo]

Haha, OK, man, I've never told anyone in real life I was raped, geesh. There's still a lot of guilt, shame and pain that stems from it and I'm not trying to take anything away from real rape victims. I simply came here for some unbiased advice (which I'm obviously getting) to try and improve a painful situation for pretty much everyone involved.

My daughter is without a father
My parents are without a grandchild
I'm without a daughter I'm 100% here for (but obviously doing something wrong)
Most of that side of the family is directly affected, but completely used to fatherless homes (which again, I've perpetuated)

People are hurting and getting used to it or have been for a long time.

For the most part, I've made amends with the mother (though I think she's a terrible person), and she has apologized for "raping" me (her words this time; I'll never bring the word up again, promise!). I've taken her out for Mother's Day, never once talked bad about her in front of the kids and treat her far better than she has ever treated me.

Until a few months ago, I'd go over their house once a week and cook dinner for everyone, though my daughter would hide in her room until I was gone. It's a hurtful situation I've been told by many to just give space to, and so I have. All it really means is one less dinner each week pretending to be a dad, because that's how I feel. It's hard to call yourself a father when you aren't needed.

So for everyone's sake, I'm looking for advice. Yes for me too. Is it really selfish of me to want to have my daughter in my life knowing I F'd up long ago, especially under the circumstances?

You can paint me out to be the bad guy, but the fact is I try my very best to raise two children that aren't even mine, from a woman that has done nothing but lie, cheat and deceive me ever since I've known her. I've had it thrown in my face a thousand times that I'm not their dad when it's convenient for her, and that I'm all they have, also when it's convenient for her. One day I'm daddy, the next I'm nobody.

To have your heart constantly played with and still support the woman, and her three kids from three different loser dads (yes, the old me included), is a tough job. Pardon me for feeling like giving up sometimes, yet know that I can't/won't.

A little advice can go a long way.

So I got your point on the previous topic, but it's really not what I'm here for.

Maybe we can agree it was an awful thing to do to somebody, robbing them of a child and the right to an attempt at normal family life because they wanted to keep you in their life and get a paycheck, then treat them like complete s*%t once it didn't turn out as rosy as planned.

I'm here asking for help. Any other pointers are welcome.

[5lomo]

I'm curious about one last thing, and I'm being very honest, because you can tell from my language in the OP that I've felt victimized.

And this has nothing to do with pointing fingers at her and shifting blame, but for my own need to open my eyes all the way.

In your opinion, what's worse:

- coercing and deceiving someone to get pregnant on purpose with the intent to keep someone in their life

- leaving said person and the child behind and running away

Your honesty is appreciated; my apologies if I was defensive.

[JudyKayTee]

So for everyone's sake, I'm looking for advice. Yes for me too. Is it really selfish of me to want to have my daughter in my life knowing I F'd up long ago, especially under the circumstances?

You can paint me out to be the bad guy, but the fact is I try my very best to raise two children that aren't even mine, from a woman that has done nothing but lie, cheat and deceive me ever since I've known her. I've had it thrown in my face a thousand times that I'm not their dad when it's convenient for her, and that I'm all they have, also when it's convenient for her. One day I'm daddy, the next I'm nobody. .

Where to start? Okay - I don’t think you’re the bad guy. If you WERE the bad guy at one time nobody should be forced to suffer for all eternity. I can read the pain in your words, I really can. It sounds like the mother plays games and the children have learned from her.

What if you simply stop trying? I’m not saying totally ignore anyone and everyone. Just do what you have to do and go nowhere beyond that. How many times can a door be slammed in your face before anyone has had enough?

Maybe your daughter is avenging her mother (who knows what her mother has said) or has her own agenda or is simply 16 - ?

At some point you have to look at whatever it is and whatever it will be - and move on. Maybe that’s by simply turning, doing the minimum , walking on.

I don’t have a problem with people who fail at whatever they are attempting. I do have a problem with people who don’t try or don’t do their best or give up.

You aren’t in any of those categories, not the way I’m seeing this.

Maybe you are totally at fault. Maybe she is totally at fault. Maybe both of you - and the daughter - are responsible BUT how long do you have to pay penance?

Sixteen years is long enough in my book.

I’d do the minimum and trust that at some point your daughter will see this from adult eyes, realize she’s been difficult and make an overture. Maybe she likes to be “chased:” and when you stop chasing things will change, maybe not right away, but maybe, just maybe.

No, I don’t think you’re the bad guy. I can read the pain in your words.

[JudyKayTee]

I'm curious about one last thing, and I'm being very honest, because you can tell from my language in the OP that I've felt victimized.

And this has nothing to do with pointing fingers at her and shifting blame, but for my own need to open my eyes all the way.

In your opinion, what's worse:

- coercing and deceiving someone to get pregnant on purpose with the intent to keep someone in their life

- leaving said person and the child behind and running away

Your honesty is appreciated; my apologies if I was defensive.

I've posted this before, but you don't know me - of course!

I was in a relationship where my partner cheated. Do you know the painful part to me was? Not the sex with another woman (believe it or not), not the cheating - the fact that he was able to look me in the face and lie about where he was, why he was, how he was.

The deceit went right to the bone.

So my answer is the deceit is worse than the running away. But that's just me.