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Alty · Jul 4, 2012, 05:06 PM

I was watching a rerun of Dr. Phil. There's nothing else on, don't judge. ;)

Anyway, it was about a brat ban. Apparently there are a few restaurants, and other establishments, that are banning children.

Of course it's caused a stir, because parents of small children feel it's their right to bring their children to any establishment they wish to, even if that child is unruly, throws tantrums, and otherwise cannot behave properly in public.

Another part of the show was about a woman that was kicked off an airline because her child, according to the flight attendant, was making too much noise. This child was not being unruly. In fact, he was laughing, enjoying himself. The flight attendant, despite the protests of all the other passengers on board, escorted the young mother and her child off the plane. One of the other passengers left with the mother, rented a car, and drove her to her destination (it was only a 1 hour flight).

Yet another part of the show was about a man that slapped a child in Walmart because he felt that the child was being too loud. That slap ended with him serving 6 months in jail, 6 months house arrest, and a 4 year probation.

So, what are your thoughts? Should children be banned from certain venues? What if your children are well behaved? Should they pay the price because of the parents that cannot teach their children to behave in public? Is this age discrimination?

My thoughts. I have two children. There have been times when we went out and one of my children (when they were much younger) had a fit. As a parent I felt that it was my responsibility to remove my child from the public venue, because I don't think it's fair that other paying customers should have to listen to my child throwing a fit. I've never been asked to remove my child from a restaurant, or any other establishment. I've always been the adult, the parent, and took control of the situation without having to be asked to do so.

What do you think? Should children be banned?

Fr_Chuck · Jul 4, 2012, 05:30 PM

I know many a day I have went into what is a pricey restaurant to enjoy perhaps a nice meal with my wife or perhaps to discuss business with an associate, if there are children in there already, I will ask to be moved to another area. In fact if I am already sitting, and the child acts up, I will ask to be moved. I have even demanded discounts or free meal, if it is so bad that it takes away from my evening. I will and have even told the child's parents that they need to keep their child under control.

As a father of 5 boys, I will say that mine were not taken out to non kid places till they were old enough to behave, and sit and eat. Even at 4 they would be well behaved, Nate now at 11 will always tell the staff, please, thank you, knows how to fold and place a napkin on his lap, knows the difference in a salad and meal fork, and so on. Kids behave when parents require proper behavor at home. It is possible for all kids to have a bad day but you can tell when it is more than that.

Even in my own school now, if a child misbehaves, and continues after being corrected, his parent is told to do something, and if they cant, or won't, they are asked to remove the child.

Alty · Jul 4, 2012, 05:40 PM

I agree Chuck.

I can say that for me, when the kids were younger we only went to family friendly restaurants. If we went to a fancy restaurant, we got a sitter.

If you're paying a lot of money for a meal, dressing up, paying someone to look after your kids so you can go out, your evening shouldn't be interrupted by a screaming child whose parents obviously cannot control the child's behavior.

The few times that I've left a restaurant because of my child's behavior, has always been at a family orientated restaurant. The first time Jared was 2 weeks old. I didn't even want to go out, but it was a friends birthday, they insisted that we come, and I was nursing, so I couldn't leave Jared with a sitter. So we went.

Half way through the meal Jared started screaming. He was hungry. As a new mom I didn't feel comfortable nursing in public. I left, sat in our van, and nursed Jared there. When he fell asleep I went back in and ate my very cold meal.

There was another time when Jared was 1. Also not my idea to go out, again, friends (that didn't have children then), and it was way past his bed time. It was a bad idea, but they begged, so we went. My parents weren't available to watch Jared.

Jared had a melt down. He was tired. So we paid our cheque, asked that our food be packed up, took our tired child home. Those friends were so angry at us for leaving, until they had kids of their own, and their own experience at a restaurant. When that happened they actually sent me flowers and a note saying "We get it now, and we're sorry". :)

Wondergirl · Jul 4, 2012, 05:52 PM

I remember picking up my toddler when we were at a Sears store looking for a new refrigerator. My child wanted to play with the plastic food in the floor models, and I didn't want him to. Our battle of wills quickly guaranteed we left the store and returned home. The same child had a meltdown in a Custer, SD, restaurant during vacation. We excused ourselves to the waitress and left to return to our motel. Then my husband and I took turns going somewhere for supper. (I think we fed the child somewhere in there.)

That taught me to have pre-excursion discussions with my children and role-play during down times at home.

Alty · Jul 4, 2012, 06:02 PM

That's something I learned as well WG, but it doesn't seem that every parent learns that lesson.

I work in retail in a place that sells toys, and many other things. As a result, we get a lot of children coming through our store.

It's interesting to watch the parents. At the register, where I usually am, we have gum, chocolate, lighters. It's inevitable that the children will either ask for gum, a chocolate, or play with the lighters (not a great idea as we don't have a sprinkler system).

In my observations most parents give in to their children. If junior starts crying because he wants a chocolate, and mommy says no, only a small percent of the parents will stick to their guns and refuse to buy the chocolate. Most of the parents say no, let their child scream, say no again, let their child scream louder, say no again, now the child is on the floor having a full blown tantrum, and then, when it seems that their point has been proven, and they've taught the child a lesson (even though the child is still screaming), they'll give in.

I never did understand that. Why say no, let your child have a hissy fit, if you're just going to give in? The only thing that teaches the child is that screaming works. Scream long enough, and loud enough, and mommy will give you what you want.

I have a great deal of respect for the parents that stick to their first answer, despite what their child does as a result of being told no. Sadly, those parents seem to be few and far between.

I'm one of the parents that sticks to what I say. If it's no, it's no, and that's it. It was hard to get that point across when they were younger. They may still try again, but they know it's pointless. My first answer is my final answer, and it doesn't change. They also know that having a fit means leaving the store with nothing. I've walked out of a store, left my full cart behind, because one of the kids was having a meltdown. They know I'm willing to do it, so they don't push it.

Wondergirl · Jul 4, 2012, 06:04 PM

Work for two weeks at the public library front desk or reference desk, and we can keep each other up all night with brat stories. All brat parents have library cards.

Alty · Jul 4, 2012, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Work for two weeks at the public library front desk or reference desk, and we can keep each other up all night with brat stories. All brat parents have library cards.

LOL! Those same people seem to visit Dollarama. ;)

We should write a book together. We could call it "The real reason kids can be brats. From the perspective of the people paid to deal with them". :)

Fr_Chuck · Jul 4, 2012, 06:22 PM

Or eat at "chuckie cheese" or CICI pizza. I though I was safe the other day, and went to a CICI which is a buffet style pizza place, but all for kids, the games, and more. But they have one of the best BBQ pizza, so my son and I went, it must have been day camp or pre school day, 100 to 200 of the loudest kids. We got our pizza's to go

Alty · Jul 4, 2012, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Or eat at "chuckie cheese" or CICI pizza. I though I was safe the other day, and went to a CICI which is a buffet style pizza place, but all for kids, the games, and more. But they have one of the best BBQ pizza, so my son and I went, it must have been day camp or pre school day, 100 to 200 of the loudest kids. We got our pizza's to go

Chuckie cheese is great for kids, but the food sucks the big one. It's really bad, and very expensive. Sad.

Now that my kids are 9 and 13 we can take them out to eat in fancier restaurants. A few months ago we took them to their first fancy dinner. Before we left I told them that this was not a place for kids, that the food is expensive, the décor is nice, and that they have to be on their best behavior.

They both did very well. Please and thank you without being told, napkins in their laps, no arguing, no shouting. Of course, I expected that, because that's what they've been taught, but still, it's nice to know that they learned what they were taught.

I have to say, before I had kids I was one of those people that would go to a restaurant, hear a screaming child, and think "Just shut that kid up! How hard can it be?" When I became a parent I realized that kids have minds of their own, and don't always do what you want them to do. As my kids grew, and I became more confident as a parent, I understood that my actions, what I teach them, does have an affect on how they act.

If I had it to do over I never would have brought a two week old infant to a restaurant, even if it meant making my friends upset. But we live and learn.

Having said that. I do agree that if a child can't behave, that child should be asked to leave a restaurant. The other people that are there are paying to have a quiet meal. They shouldn't suffer because a parent can't control a child, or a child is unruly.

But, to ban children altogether, I don't think that's fair. The one restaurant has put a ban on any child under the age of 6. By the age of 2 both of my children were behaved, and very much ready to be in public.

Also, there is still the issue of age discrimination. If a restaurant banned anyone over the age of 65, you could bet that more people would be upset.

odinn7 · Jul 4, 2012, 08:09 PM

My brother in laws kids are the most unruly I have ever seen. You only have to be around them and the family once to see why. Anything they want to do, if it's easier than telling them "no", they get to do it. Out at restaurants, they run around, they scream, they throw fits. A few weeks ago, we did a fathers day breakfast. The 10 year old boy had a Nintendo DSi with him and he started yelling at it... yes, yelling. He was yelling at the top of his lungs that the game was cheating. "Turn it off then, Buddy" was what he was told. He yelled that he wasn't going to and continued yelling. This is where it always goes when we're out in public with them and I hate being seen with them. Not once have they ever removed one of their kids from a place but rather they let them continue with their fits, usually ignoring them.

My daughter, now 12, has been good for the most part. Once when she was really young we had to remove her from a restaurant but if I recall, she was starting to get sick at the time so I think she was having issues. Overall, she has been really good out in public and we have even gotten comments about that.

There was one time when she was 2 or 3 years old and we were in Walmart. She got out of hand because she couldn't have something. After the normal conversation didn't work and she got louder, I decided I needed to take her out of the store. I picked her up and started carrying her out, under my arm. "HELP ME! SOMEBODY HELP ME!" she started screaming over and over. This was both funny and scary. It amused me that she thought of this but at the same time, it was a little scary that nobody in the store bothered to question me and let me just walk out with her.

Oh well, I look back on that and tell her about it now and we laugh.

Alty · Jul 4, 2012, 08:33 PM

Odinn, I completely understand. I've been there. But only when my kids were younger.

About the "Help me! Somebody help me!" That is scary. Not because she said it, but because no one questioned it.

I saw a show a while back about this. They had a child actor, and an adult actor, and they put them on the street. The child was instructed to yell for help. They wanted to see what people would do. No one did a thing. Most people, when interviewed afterwards, just thought the girl was being a brat.

So they changed things up a bit. They told the girl to scream "This is not my father! This is a stranger!" When that happened a group of guys went after the guy. Two of them grabbed the girl while the other guy called the police. When they interviewed these guys, asked why they intervened, they said it was because of what the girl said. Even then, it took a few minutes for them to act. They hesitated at first. When asked why, it was because they questioned whether the girl was really in danger, or just being a brat.

Most people are used to kids screaming, so they ignore it. It's sad. Society has gotten so used to kids bad behavior that a child could be in real danger, asking for help, and people ignore it. :(

earl237 · Jul 6, 2012, 02:57 PM

I have no problem with kids not being allowed in certain public places such as restaurants and movie theatres. Even teenagers don't have many manners in public and I think that cellphones should be banned from theatres too. I think that a 6 month prison sentence was way to severe for the man in the Walmart incident unless the child was seriously injured, why was he treated so harshly?

Alty · Jul 6, 2012, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by earl237

I have no problem with kids not being allowed in certain public places such as restaurants and movie theatres. Even teenagers don't have many manners in public and I think that cellphones should be banned from theatres too. I think that a 6 month prison sentence was way to severe for the man in the Walmart incident unless the child was seriously injured, why was he treated so harshly?

Earl, he assaulted a child. Just because the child was being loud, doesn't mean a stranger has the right to slap the child. If he had slapped you how would you feel? It's assault.

Truthfully, I think he got off light. If he had slapped my child I would have slapped him back. Jail would have been the least of his worries, and I would have been completely justified in hitting him, since a child can't defend him/herself.

odinn7 · Jul 6, 2012, 03:33 PM

I would have had him on the ground with a 9mm stuck in his face until the cops got there if that was my kid he hit.

Alty · Jul 6, 2012, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by odinn7

I would have had him on the ground with a 9mm stuck in his face until the cops got there if that was my kid he hit.

They allow guns in Walmart in the US?

Wow! Scary! ;)

earl237 · Jul 6, 2012, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Alty

Earl, he assaulted a child. Just because the child was being loud, doesn't mean a stranger has the right to slap the child. If he had slapped you how would you feel? It's assault.

Truthfully, I think he got off light. If he had slapped my child I would have slapped him back. Jail would have been the least of his worries, and I would have been completely justified in hitting him, since a child can't defend him/herself.

That guy slapped a stranger's child! I thought it was his child, I must have misread it, that totally changes everything, I can see now that charges were appropriate. I just ignore annoying people in public and try to stay as far away as possible.

Alty · Jul 6, 2012, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by earl237

That guy slapped a stranger's child!? I thought it was his child, I must have misread it, that totally changes everything, I can see now that charges were appropriate. I just ignore annoying people in public and try to stay as far away as possible.

Ah, now your reply makes sense. Yes, it was a strangers child. The child was 2 years old, being a 2 year old, and the man walked up and slapped her. Security was called, the police where called, and he was charged.

Dr. Phil had him on the phone during the show, and the man still doesn't think he did anything wrong. He doesn't have children, admitted that he's not fond of children, but didn't think there was anything wrong with slapping a child to shut that child up. He even said that he only wanted the child to be quiet and didn't see why his actions were wrong.

He hasn't learned a thing. Had he done that to an adult he would be lucky to even get to trial. The mother of the child was also a lot better than I would have been. She remained calm, called for security, she didn't hit him back. I would have.

odinn7 · Jul 6, 2012, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Alty

They allow guns in Walmart in the US?

Wow! Scary! ;)

I am licensed to carry one... in Walmart or most anywhere else. Lol

Alty · Jul 6, 2012, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by odinn7

I am licensed to carry one...in Walmart or most anywhere else. lol

Mental note. If going someplace shady, invite Odinn, and his gun. :)

LadySam · Jul 6, 2012, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Alty

Ah, now your reply makes sense. Yes, it was a strangers child. The child was 2 years old, being a 2 year old, and the man walked up and slapped her. Security was called, the police where called, and he was charged.

Dr. Phil had him on the phone during the show, and the man still doesn't think he did anything wrong. He doesn't have children, admitted that he's not fond of children, but didn't think there was anything wrong with slapping a child to shut that child up. He even said that he only wanted the child to be quiet and didn't see why his actions were wrong.

He hasn't learned a thing. Had he done that to an adult he would be lucky to even get to trial. The mother of the child was also a lot better than I would have been. She remained calm, called for security, she didn't hit him back. I would have.

Where in the H E double hockey sticks did that happen? I missed that news story.
A 2 year old? Sorry, I may not have won the fight but I would have had to at least tried to kick his a$$.
My kids for the most part were well behaved even at that age, but a 2 year old can be hard to reason with.

I don't agree with a ban I think every place of business should reserve the right to ask that an unruly child be taken out of that business.
If my daughter and I go out to eat my grandson has to go with us, but neither of us would let him disrupt someone else's meal.