[tiggerella]

I have been working in a less-than-ideal situation for many years now and I'm trying to get a different job. I seem to have a good resume and cover letter, as I get into interviews. I seem to be hitting the right marks with the interviewer, who often ends with "let me check your job references, then we can discuss when you can start".

Then: NOTHING.

No phone calls to discuss a start date.

No emails stating that it's not going to work out.

No response to any calls I might make to try to find out what happened.

I HAVE heard my boss give job references on employees who moved to other states, or other towns due to circumstances beyond their control and know that she's not exactly telling the full truth when she talks to potential employers for them. I've heard her say a LOT more than what the state allows her to discuss (which is, basically, whether the employee did a good job and whether she'd hire them back). I've actually even put in my cover letter that I prefer that they NOT contact my current employer, as I suspect she's doing everything in her power to keep me working with her, as when I'm even gone for a couple of days, the place goes haywire without me.

Is it legal for me to have a friend or family member whom she has never met call and ask for a job reference? Would it be morally wrong to try to find out whether she's the reason I haven't been able to get beyond a job interview since I decided the job with her wasn't right for me?

Any thoughts on this, whether you're a lawyer or not, would be appreciated.

[JudyKayTee]

I'm an investigator. This is not an unusual request and, yes, I do it somewhat frequently.

[Fr_Chuck]

First I don't know where most people get the impression that a employer is limited as to what they can say, most will not say anything, some will just give dates of employment and reasons for discharge, others will tell about every detail of their job, attendance records and more.

But as for as having someone else call, it often back fires and it is fairly obvious it is happening, and as long as they are not lying, if they are telling the truth, there is little you can do.

[AK lawyer]

...
Is it legal ... ? ...

Yes.

Is it immoral? Most ethical systems provide that, in general, it is immoral to lie. If your friend calls your former employer and says that "___ has applied for a job with my company ...", that would be a lie. So, yes.

Legal but immoral. Strange, huh?

[excon]

Is it legal for me to have a friend or family member whom she has never met call and ask for a job reference? Would it be morally wrong

Hello t:

It's not illegal to call, but that won't do you any good unless you RECORD the call. Some states require only ONE party to approve of a recording, and others, require BOTH parties to approve.

Look. If she's trying to SCREW you, there's nothing immoral about STOPPING her.

excon

[JudyKayTee]

Hello t:

It's not illegal to call, but that won't do you any good unless you RECORD the call. Some states require only ONE party to approve of a recording, and others, require BOTH parties to approve.

Look. If she's trying to SCREW you, there's nothing immoral about STOPPING her.

excon

Must vary by State - I don't record but give a notarized statement (about various conversations) on a regular basis.

[JudyKayTee]

Yes.

Is it immoral? Most ethical systems provide that, in general, it is immoral to lie. If your friend calls your former employer and says that "___ has applied for a job with my company ...", that would be a lie. So, yes.

Legal but immoral. Strange, huh?

So my profession is somewhere under "Used Car Salesman" on the immoral list - {insert smiley face here}

Just for the record - I don't misrepresent myself, and I do introduce myself by name and company. "We" don't all lie.

[AK lawyer]

...
Just for the record - I don't misrepresent myself, and I do introduce myself by name and company. "We" don't all lie.

Good, but I'm trying to imagine a phone script by which OP's friend could make the phone call without lying:

"Hello. I'm John Smith. I understand that ____ recently worked for you. What can you tell me about him?"

"Why? Did he apply for a job with you?"

"I cannot tell a lie. No. I'm just curious."

"Click."

[JudyKayTee]

Perhaps moral questions should be posted on other than the legal boards.

At any rate I've heard tape recordings people have made of themselves "getting information" from another party - too much TV. A lot of "Ah Hah!" and the like.

No, that's not how it works.

[tiggerella]

Thanks for the interesting feedback, everyone - and a couple of laughs tossed in for my Friday morning after a very rough week. Perhaps what's been happening has nothing to do with anyone contacting my current employer and I may end up going through a "false interview" with the local Job Bank soon to see if there's something else I've been missing, but I just wanted to see what the folks here had to say.

Have a great weekend!

[AK lawyer]

... Some states require only ONE party to approve of a recording, and others, require BOTH parties to approve.
...

Has nothing to do particularly with contacting an ex employer. I believe what Excon was pointing out here is the fact that it's actually a crime in some states to record a conversation when the other party to the conversation is unaware that it's being recorded.

[excon]

Has nothing to do particularly with contacting an ex employer.

Hello lawyer:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say... Certainly IF the previous employer is LYING, the OP is going to want to STOP him, OR recover damages... Without a recording of him doing that, he's NOT going to stop, and she's NOT going to collect damages.

excon

[AK lawyer]

Hello lawyer:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say... Certainly IF the previous employer is LYING, the OP is gonna want to STOP him, OR recover damages... Without a recording of him doing that, he's NOT gonna stop, and she's NOT gonna collect damages.

excon

Maybe I shouldn't have tried to clarify what you wrote. Sorry.

It was my interpretation of your point. I sensed that it was unclear. It appears that I made it further muddied.

I don't think a tape of a phonecall from a phony potential-employer is going to prove what the ex-employer may have said to real potential-employers, anyway. It would, however, give OP an idea whether the ex-employer is bad-mouthing him/her. And, with that info. OP might decide to sue for slander. If OP does sue, he/she could then depose the people (real potential employers) who actually called ex-employer and maybe prove what they were told.

[tiggerella]

In response to the most recent posts from AK Lawyer and excon, I should probably clarify myself that I wouldn't be tryng to bring charges against my employer. Probably wouldn't do any good, as all her current and former employees know that she seems to live in her own little world and anything that might make her change is just going to be ignored anyway. (Let's face it, if I DID want to bring charges, I've been working there long enough to know where all her skeletons are buried - and have photo and paperwork documentation to destroy her business should anything untoward happen to me.) At this point in my life, I'm just trying to get a job closer to my home (I commute 35 miles one way) that doesn't require me to go against the customer service training codes I live by just to satisfy one woman's inflated ego.

Thanks yet again for the feedback, everyone!

[excon]

I should probably clarify myself that I wouldn't be tryng to bring charges against my employer. Probably wouldn't do any good

Hello again, t:

You confuse criminal charges with civil charges... If she's COSTING you money, why WOULDN'T you sue her? What is the POINT of finding out that she's doing you dirty if NOT to sue.. I don't get it.

excon

[JudyKayTee]

In response to the most recent posts from AK Lawyer and excon, I should probably clarify myself that I wouldn't be tryng to bring charges against my employer. Probably wouldn't do any good, as all her current and former employees know that she seems to live in her own little world and anything that might make her change is just going to be ignored anyway. (Let's face it, if I DID want to bring charges, I've been working there long enough to know where all her skeletons are buried - and have photo and paperwork documentation to destroy her business should anything untoward happen to me.) At this point in my life, I'm just trying to get a job closer to my home (I commute 35 miles one way) that doesn't require me to go against the customer service training codes I live by just to satisfy one woman's inflated ego.

Thanks yet again for the feedback, everyone!

Hmm - let me just explain that once the "I have enough evidence to destroy her" language comes into a conversation I figure it's less about what is true or hurtful and more about revenge.

If anything "untoward" happens to OP? Did I miss something where somebody was threatening to injure someone else?

[tiggerella]

Hmm - let me just explain that once the "I have enough evidence to destroy her" language comes into a conversation I figure it's less about what is true or hurtful and more about revenge.

If anything "untoward" happens to OP? Did I miss something where somebody was threatening to injure someone else?

Sorry, JudyKayTee, but I'm just very frustrated. When I took this job 8 years ago, I was told that the "entry level position" as an experienced receptionist would become an office manager position if I proved myself. For the past 5 years, I've been doing everything required of the office manager short of scheduling and Quickbooks, and we haven't had an official office manager for 3 years now, but I'm not allowed to move up and, if you read my initial post, it seems I'm not being allowed to move out to another job, either. In the meantime, the sadly outdated computer system I have to work on every day is more and more infuriating, there are Labor Board and OSHA violations threatening my health and mental well being, and the boss is about to go on her fourth two week vacation this year when the contract I had to sign when I took this job states that I only get two weeks vacation/sick time each year and I can't take two consecutive weeks to do anything with MY family...

I want out of this madness I stupidly put myself in, and I'm just trying to find out if the reason I can't seem to get a new job is something I can change about myself - or if it's a poor reference from a poor excuse for a human being whom I've caught lying about former employees when their potential new employers were calling for references...

[JudyKayTee]

I understand your frustration - if your contract states you can get two weks back to back and you do not, then you DO have an action.

What would I do? I would have someone with knowledge or what to ask and how to ask it make a phone call.

And I realize not everyone agrees with me.

[tiggerella]

An addendum to the above: After having my boss accuse me of "illegal activity" for claiming my employee discount for my children's pets, who don't technically live with me while openly giving HER family employee discounts for pets that don't live with HER - and cutting me back to one day a week, which would have cost me more in gas and wear and tear on my car than I would have been making - I've now quit my job and hope the above discussed issue doesn't come into play before I find another job.

I thank you all again for your feedback.