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PaintsRule · Jun 7, 2012, 08:13 AM

Yes the pump came with a 6.6 gallon and we used to have a 20 gallon one, so should we install it? Should that help, or should we spend the money to buy a 40 gallon... I don't know if its bladder, how can we check?

jlisenbe · Jun 7, 2012, 04:04 PM

The bladder tanks are generally painted blue or grey and have an air valve located at, or very near, the top. The non-bladder tanks are galvanized. A larger tank will help with volume BRIEFLY, which is to say only long enough to exhaust the reserve in the tank, which will be enough to flush a toilet or take a short shower. However, any more than that, and you will be right back to depending on how much the pump can deliver, which is your basic problem. You still need to resolve that issue. Has this volume problem always been there, or has the pump delivered enough water at some point in the past?

I might mention that SB and I have discussed this in the past and we just simply don't agree on which type of tank to buy. The galvanized tanks are cheaper, but require periodic maintanence. The bladder tanks are higher priced, but are "set it and forget it". You should also know that a bladder tank tends to have a higher reserve of water than a similarly sized galvanized tank, so it is not necessary to buy as large a tank with the bladder tank. So you can win either way as long as you know what you are getting into.

Send the pump model # when you can.

PaintsRule · Jun 7, 2012, 05:21 PM

This one is painted blue and it has an air nipple. We could fill our 40 gallon water barrels in about 15 minutes with the 20 gallon tank we have, but with a different pump, actually a 3/4 or a 1/3 I think... So if we were filling a 40 gallon tank, while it was filling there would still be water intake from the spring so should be fine... we can't even flush the toilet with this set up with the smaller tank... it was leaking though so we are getting this fixed, where we had the CV it was leaking quite a bit, so we have that fixed. This pump is brand new but was sitting for 2 years. So we are fixing that leak and trying again. We also had one fitting that was not tight and was leaking a lot slower. The one at the front of the CV was about 3 or 4 drops per second. Could that cause the loss of flow?

jlisenbe · Jun 7, 2012, 07:59 PM

Small leaks don't affect your flow.

If I'm understanding you right, this pump has had this problem ever since it was installed, which was recently. Is that correct? Also, do try to get the model # up.

Hadn't even thought about this, but it would be wise to call the pump manufacturer. I'm just curious that if your 400 foot run of pipe from the spring might be having some impact here.

PaintsRule · Jun 7, 2012, 09:26 PM

We have had a jet pump here for about 10 years, most of it was I believe a 1/3 or a half horse power. We actually could shower the first day we installed it, but then we were not having it shut off... before we put the check valve on. Uggg... this is getting frustrating, the pump was never used before we got it, but is still under 2 year limitted warranty... the gal supposedly bought it as a spare... and never in stalled it...

Model number 062-3554-6

It is wired with white house wire, but then plugged into a 20 foot extension cord that may not be heavy duty, could that be the problem? So what problems can cause loss of flow? The pump hooked to a short pipe in a 45 gallon barrel of water for supply is fine (with foot valve... ) a different foot valve... maybe the foot valve on the long pipe is bad? Its been used in the barrel and was fine... it's a plastic one... we have a metal one, but hate to have to refill our hose...

hkstroud · Jun 8, 2012, 06:29 AM

If I may jump in here, jlisenb is correct, the wiring is not the problem. It could (should) be redone but it is not a contributing factor to the failure of the pump motor not shutting off or the lack of water volume.

Are you saying that after installing the check valve, the pump now shuts off properly and holds the pressure but the volume of water is greately reduced?

PaintsRule · Jun 8, 2012, 08:20 AM

Sorry using my phone before cv ishowerd for a long te no problem after cv husband could not fill barrel even running slow... but pipe ahead of cy was leaking... gonna try to fix leak and change tank...

hkstroud · Jun 8, 2012, 09:05 AM

I am reading your post as;

"Before the check valve was installed I could take a long shower with aout any problem. After installing hubby can't fill the watering tanks because the flow is so low."

The tank will not be the problem. After all it's just a tank.

It's rather elementry but I would suggest you check the installation of the check valve. Check valves have or should have an arrow showing the direction of the flow. Make sure it is installed properly. Also check to make sure you have the correct type of check valve.
There are two types of check valves. One is intended to be installed horizontially the other is intended to be installed vertically.
I am surprised that your small pump can even pull water the distance you have described. Any additional restriction would have a dramatic effect on flow.

Installing a vertical check valve on a horizontial line would probably provide that restriction. So to would installing a horizontial valve on a vertical line.

PaintsRule · Jun 8, 2012, 11:43 AM

I didn't realize that the check valve had to be horizontal or vertical, as in the pipe has to be horizontal or verticle? This check valve is installed on a pipe that is on slope! So maybe checking to see how it SHOULD be installed and adding an elbow in the pipe to make it so??

PaintsRule · Jun 8, 2012, 01:11 PM

Ours appears to be a spring loaded one that can be used both horizontal or verticle, so shouldn't matter that its at an angle?

PaintsRule · Jun 8, 2012, 04:44 PM

I am not sure it's a flow problem, or a losing its prime problem... would a leak cause it to loose its prime will pumping? If it was leaking just above the check valve?

hkstroud · Jun 8, 2012, 07:00 PM

Your prime is the water in the pipe and pump before it starts running. The pump is not designed to move or pump air. If the pump and pipe are filled with air the pump will simply spin doing nothing. If filled with water it will move the water out and pull more water in the other end of th pipe.

It sounds like you are saying that you have a flow problem in that the flow (amount) of water is not what you think it should be.

It does sound like the check valve is what is causing the low flow problem. As said earlier, I am a bit surprised that the small pump you are using can pull water 400 feet. Apparently because the lift is only 15 or so feet makes it possible. Anything that makes it more difficult will seriously affect the flow.
Most check valves rely on gravity to close the valve. The flow of water only has to over come the weight of the flapper valve in order for the water to pass through it.
With the positive stop type check valve (the spring loaded type) the strength of the flow must over come the strength of the spring.
Since I think your system is already on the critical edge of it capabilities, I suggest you change the check valve to a gravity type, either horizontial or vertical.

Apparently the pump you were using before had a built in check valve and the one you are using now does not, therefore you must have the check valve in the line to prevent all the water in the tank from flowing back to the well. From what you said earlier you apparently had sufficient flow before you installed the check valve. You must have the check valve but use the one that creates the least resistance to the flow.

jlisenbe · Jun 8, 2012, 08:00 PM

Paints, this is, to me, the big question. Has this system ever worked properly for you? If so, what change seemed to bring on the problems. Did this new pump seem to be the start of it? If so, then the pump is the first place to look.

PaintsRule · Jun 9, 2012, 03:25 AM

For 20-30 years we used a piston pump, it wasn't working well so we removed it and got a jet pump. We started having trouble with the jet pump, it had worked for about 5 years with a 20 gallon tank. It was a 1/3 horsepower I THINK for sure not more than a 1/2 horsepower. We bought a new pump (3/4 horsepower), installed it on the same tank and it worked sort of, for 3 months or so pump stopped working so we took it back on warranty and got a half horse power, which we installed and it worked for a few months then it stopped working as far as pulling water, it was winter, thought the line was frozen. None of these pumps did we use a check valve on. So all winter, we put water in a barrel and the foot valve and pipe to run water through the house. When we came to hook the line back on, that pump stopped working totally. Wouldn't even turn when we plugged it in. So this spring, after trying the pump, we bought a new in box BUT 2 years old had been sitting after the gal bought it, never supposed to be used, and replaced the whole line, there is only one elbow on the line. We have only laid the line on the ground. This pump will pump fine with the line back in the barrel, and no check valve, but will, eventually loose its prime on the long line... Without the check valve it would draw, and give sufficient water for long times but not shut off, with check valve it will eventually loose its prime. The check valve is spring loaded I believe... so I should get what kind of check valve? A gravity one? Vertical or horizontal would be better?

jlisenbe · Jun 9, 2012, 06:32 AM

It sounds like your well has never worked consistently. Just for clarity, to draw water up 400 feet or more of pipe is unusual, even though the elevation is only fifteen feet or so. It would be much better to have the pump at the spring and pump water up the pipe as opposed to what you have now. But that would involve several hundred dollars of underground cable which makes it tough.

I tried to look your pump up but had no luck with a Mastercraft 062-3554. Are you sure that's correct?

This is what we are referring to in a checkvalve. http://www.wayfair.com/Wayne-Water-S...=BSF49-WAY1193

Paint, it is sometimes difficult to lend help from hundreds of miles away like we are trying to do. It seems this current pump worked properly (except for cutting off) until you put the CV on. Now, with the CV, volume is your problem. A CV should not affect that at all. So make sure the CV in "pointed" in the right direction. If that is true, then I'd try removing the CV and see if my volume returns. If it does, then we can try a different solution to the "bouncing" pressure. But let's first try to establish what the situation is with your pump delivering enough water.

PaintsRule · Jun 10, 2012, 08:47 AM

I appreciate the help. We had a jet pump that did work for many years. We did not have a check valve on. The check valve I had on lately was a big plastic thing with a flap inside that would shut. We did try removing it and after unplugging the pump you hear the air/water suck back out of it... then you just fill it with about 2 quarts of water and it is full and stays full. ANother question what if the foot valve is not working correctly and plugged? Could this cause problems, like its trying to suck up and cant?? Hubby does not want to change the foot valve, but I am thinking we should try... The pump will distribute water in our house with no problem with a different foot valve in a 45 gallon barrel...

PaintsRule · Jun 10, 2012, 09:53 AM

Removed the CV, changed the foot valve... still not pumping up at all now. Thinking we might just give up and do the submersible pump after all! UGGGG. I am so discouraged, I know we should just scrap it all and dig a deep well!

PaintsRule · Jun 10, 2012, 10:25 AM

Here is what I am wondering now, and I am really appreciative of everyone's help. Our spring is a hole in ground in the middle of the woods with a box around it. When we put the new pipe/foot valve in we would pump it up and down in the spring to draw the water up and fill the pipe without getting air in it. Well I was wondering, might we be causing stuff to float around in the water by doing so and plugging our foot valve? Thus we can fill our pipe from above and then go to pump, it is like a straw trying to draw water, you might move the water up the pipe some but then when you stop sucking it runs back to the plugged end... I don't know, I am grasping at straws here. The reason I am hesitant to call a plumber is honestly I am not sure if they know too much about working with a system like we have... I called 2 plumbers when I started to ask if I should have a 1 inch pipe or a 1 1/4 inch pipe and they kind of sounded dumbfounded... several things I asked about and they didn't seem to know/want to give advise. My brother in law hired a plumber once because his water line was frozen from the house to the wellhouse and the guy charged him 5 hours for pouring boiling water into a funnel into the water pipe, when we borrowed a local guy's stirrup pump, with 100 feet of small stiff hose, put the hose right into the pipe and within 1/2 hour had pushed hot water to the frozen part of the pipe and thawed his water... so just leary to spend the money and still have no fix, although at this point, we probably have spent enough on trying to have hired a plumber to begin with!

PaintsRule · Jun 10, 2012, 10:27 AM

So was thinking as a last ditch effort before resorting to buying a sumbersible pump and 450 feet of wire, to buy a brand new foot valve, setting it down in there and NOT pumping it in the spring, waiting until its clear and everything settled, THEN filling from above and trying it...

jlisenbe · Jun 10, 2012, 11:05 AM

We had a jet pump that did work for many years. We did not have a check valve on.

Had a pump that worked. Now have a pump that seems not to work. Hmmm.

It would seem your best course of action would be to replace the footvalve (ten or fifteen bucks... cheap) and try the pump. (Current footvalve could be clogged/defective) If that does not help, then remove the CV, even though that should make no difference at all. But who knows?

If it still does not work, then I'd start thinking pump.

One more item. Putting the pump at the source of water and then pumping uphill is a better option, it seems to me, that what you have now. But then you are talking some serious money, even just for the buried cable.