[Bubbles2222345]

Im still sticking with my thought that he made the very first move even though it was a look and suggestive talk may I add. It does not matter whether I am posting or not and he's not . That still does not make me the bad guy. Hes married , He made it quite clear he was available for any sort of relationship. THE point is he started things rolling FIRST. That makes him the BAD GUY NOT ME. Another point to make what about the other women I have heard of who have relationships with guys who are married and go on to have successful relationships with them. They leave their wife's to be with them etc. And don't say oohh yeah they will cheat on them eventually. Yes they might or might not as goes with any guy married or not. What would you say about these women whose realationships with men who where married when they first met them turned out OK??

[odinn7]

THE point is he started things rolling FIRST. That makes him the BAD GUY NOT ME

Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

[ScottGem]

He made it quite clear he was available for any sort of relationship. THE point is he started things rolling FIRST. That makes him the BAD GUY NOT ME.

wom

If you want to believe that to make you feel better, I can't stop you. I doubt if anyone else will see it that way.

As for women who have successfully broken up a marriage and then had a successful relationship, I happen to know one of those. Yes they do happen, but they are the exception not the rule. And generally the married party divorces shortly after the relationship starts.

[Bubbles2222345]

I don't want to believe that to make me feel any better , that's how it was and how it started. I know quite a few people who have got together and gone on to have good relationships without cheating on each other having left this behind as they have found the one they truly want to be with and be faithful too There are a lot of sides to this subject.

[ScottGem]

Sorry but no. that as long as he was legally married, neither legally separated or divorced, then it was WRONG of you to enter any relationship with him. In some areas it may even be illegal. Clearly its immoral. No matter how you try to rationalize it, that is a fact. The purpose of a marriage vow is to commit one person to another legally and spiritually. To violate those vows is wrong to interfere with those vows is wrong.

End of story.

[Bubbles2222345]

If he was legally married (is). It should be legally wrong then for him to make suggestions that he wants to go outside of that in the first place. Yes as I said I know my part. Yes I do. The first move was made by him whether he is posting this or not. End oF.

[ScottGem]

We already went over this. He broke his vows just as much as you interfered with them. That doesn't excuse your interference with his vows. Whether he made the first move or not is immaterial to the FACT that YOU were wrong for not turning him away. And frankly I don't think you do know your part because you keep trying to rationalize your part.

[J_9]

There is no convincing this "woman" that she is doing wrong. She will believe what she wants to believe.

He may be a womanizer, but she is enabling him to do so. Remember that Karma is a (b)itch. She'll come back to bite you in the end. Good luck to you and always watch behind your back.

[Bubbles2222345]

Im not trying to say I never did wrong, I'm trying to get the simple point across its not ONE SIDED OK? Im not pathetic, I'm not a Booty call. Hes not a womanizer either, a womanizer is a man who goes round every good looking woman he can trying to get with them, flirting non stop and has a bad reputation. He is a quiet man who does not socialize a lot ,keeps himself to himself, he does not go round saying " look at me I'm gorgeous in fact quite the opposite most of the time he's got a terrible downer on himself and suffers from anxiety because of his family situation and how its made him. I realize there are so many married men who do this they are all lumped into the same box with comments of OHHh THEIR ALL THE SAME, THEY ARE NOT ALL THE SAME. There are exceptions to this rule. They are not all Bed hopping, womanizing, flirting men just because their married.. Please.

[ScottGem]

im trying to get the simple point across its not ONE SIDED OK?.

Who ever said it was?

And this last note makes little sense. All along you have been trying to pin the blame on him. Now you are defending him.

All along we have acknowledged that he certainly shares in the fault. He took vows and reneged on those vows. You have said that he made it "quite clear he was available". But that does not relieve you of YOUR responsibility. And that's what we are talking about here. He didn't post, he's not here to ask questions. You are, so the focus is on you.

And the fact remains, as I have said many times, is that once you knew he was married, then you should have told him to see you when he gets a divorce AND NOT BEFORE!

[Bubbles2222345]

Im not going to say that to him as I have firm believes that he's frightenened of something i.e losing his children and he has made it plain that his wife has problems and turns everything into arguments. I think some men stay for children, fear of starting again on their own. I get the feeling he would want to leave if it were not for something stopping him. And no I know nothing physically is stopping him. I MEAN GUILT. Therefore he should not be taking any steps be it looks , suggestions to go with someone else before he has sorted out his problems at home. My reasoning is he started his , HIS PROBLEM. Im not married I'm single and yes I can do what I like he cannot.

[J_9]

This is like talking to a brick wall!

You are going to do whatever you want to do. What is it exactly you want to hear from us?

[ScottGem]

My reasoning is he started his , HIS PROBLEM.

We keep going around in circles here, but it always comes back to that. Because he started it, he's the bad person, its his problem, so it was OK for you to take up with him. No matter what else you have said here, it always comes back to that.

If you want or expect us to go along with that an lessen your obvious guilt, it ain't going to happen. Whatever else HE did, however much he is at fault, this is not one sided, nor will it ever be. Once you became aware he was married, then he became off limits. For you to encourage his advances, for you take up with him was WRONG! No matter how you try to rationalize it to yourself, that's a fact.

Clearly you are never going to admit that, even though I think, deep down, you understand it and that's why you have been fighting the truth so hard. Until you do, any further discussion is a waste of time, yours and ours.

As J_9 asked what else do you want from us?

[JudyKayTee]

I'm coming in this late - I worked in a matrimonial law firm. I've done more matrimonial/relationship surveillances than I can count. The husband ALWAYS tells the same sad story to the girlfriend about the neglectful, distracted wife who is cold and one of them sleeps on the couch, in the spare room, someplace other than the marital bed. When repeated to her this info is almost always a big shock to the wife!

At any rate, you cannot make a woman who has no self respect get self respect. The best she can get is someone else's husband.

No one can change that but her.

[Bubbles2222345]

Judy Kay can I just have you reply to me? I am trying to get a point across that there are many people who go on to have successful relationships with people who have been married before , and who started seeing each other when one of them was still married OK?? If ,after all these people who have replied to me on here, this happens , HOW COME THEN?? What would YOU say about these people? I know of people who sleep[ in separate rooms and the husband has seen other women*. Their not lying then are they?? How come then? I don't care if the man I'm seeing is sleeping with his wife but he could be one of those who is telling the truth and telling it how it is?? Im not having a pop at you at all I'm just saying that there are people who are in bad marriages who don't sleep together. Come on now you must know this? Im not saying men lie because they do and women too but what about the exceptions. There has to be another side. If my relationship does not work out then it does not but I want to investigate all sides of this situation. Thanks .

[J_9]

Judy Kay can i just have you reply to me?.

No, you can't. This is a public board and all members are permitted to reply.

I am trying to get a point across that there are many people who go on to have successful relationships with people who have been married before , and who started seeing each other when one of them was still married ok????.

The operative word here is BEEN. Been married. Maybe some have gone on to have successful relationships AFTER the divorce, but it's not that common. Haven't you heard the term "once a cheater, always a cheater?"

I know of people who sleep[ in separate rooms and the husband has seen other women*. Their not lying then are they????.

Actually they are. Just because they TELL you they are sleeping on separate rooms doesn't mean they actually are. You truly don't know unless you are there to visualize it... see it with your own eyes. You only hear it second hand... from him. The jerk who wants his cake and to eat it too.

I dont care if the man im seeing is sleeping with his wife but he could be one of those who is telling the truth and telling it how it is??.

But you only hear this out of his mouth, so how do you know he is telling the truth?

You see, I don't feel that you deserve 100% of the blame at all. This man is a liar and a cheat. To him you are sloppy seconds. He will never devote all of his time to you.

[ScottGem]

What has come through in over 2 weeks and 4 pages of discussion is that you feel a great deal of guilt for getting involved with this guy. You are so very desperate to find some justification for taking up with him. You really need to understand that.

I mentioned earlier, that I knew of such a relationship. I had an uncle, who took up with his secretary, divorced my aunt, married the secretary and remained married until he died. From what I know of the marriage it was successful. I'm not going to go into details about why I think they worked out. But the point is that he did get a divorce. And it wasn't three years later.

That doesn't change the fact that his secretary was wrong for encouraging him.

[JudyKayTee]

Judy Kay can i just have you reply to me?. I am trying to get a point across that there are many people who go on to have successful relationships with people who have been married before , and who started seeing each other when one of them was still married ok????. If ,after all these people who have replied to me on here, this happens , HOW COME THEN???. What would YOU say about these people?. I know of people who sleep[ in separate rooms and the husband has seen other women*. Their not lying then are they????. How come then?. I dont care if the man im seeing is sleeping with his wife but he could be one of those who is telling the truth and telling it how it is??. Im not having a pop at you at all im just saying that there are people who are in bad marriages who dont sleep together. Come on now you must know this?. Im not saying men lie because they do and women too but what about the exceptions. There has to be another side. If my relationship does not work out then it does not but i want to investigate all sides of this situation. Thanks .

I don't feel a need to defend my opinions but - I can boil it down very quickly. I don't know any of the "many people" who cheated, married, lived happily ever after with the cheating partner. Apparently you do, although I don't see any of them posting here.

Your boyfriend lies to his wife. Why do you think what he tells you is the truth?

Of course there's another side. I don't defend or, for that matter, understand that "other side." You want out of a marriage? Get out of the marriage. Get divorced, date out in the open.

I've had friends involved in affairs - they see the boyfriend certain days, certain times, because he has responsibilities at home. Christmas is a day late or a day early - same thing. Thanksgiving? They eat alone. They hope their birthday falls on a day when he's available. Go out in public to a nice restaurant? Can't take the chance.

I don't want to live in the shadows. I have too much self respect.

I never have, never would get involved with a man who is/was involved with another woman. No man is worth hurting another woman in that manner. It also comes down to self respect. I can actually find men who are single and available. I don't need another woman's reject.

I do matrimonial surveillances (as well as other surveillances). I have posted this same thing before. It's very seldom about the sex, the affair. It's ALL about your partner looking you in the face and lying... and lying... and lying. You believe the person and end up feeling like a fool. Meanwhile, he goes on lying... and lying... and lying - and the "other woman" condones his behavior.

Is it really worth it? Is he the only man in town?

You can answer a question for me - what's in the affair for you?

[Bubbles2222345]

I do know lots of people who have had relationships with married men, I have a friend who has been seeing someone who has been married for over 3 years and living with his wife while he is seeing this person. Hes now left his wife and they are happy, no difference to any other relationship that works out well for single people. Just because people are married it does not set them aside as different. Or it does not mean their relationship with someone else is or is not going to work out less than anyone who is single. Sorry that's my views. I had an aunt and uncle who I saw with my own eyes slept in other rooms when their marriage went sour, so people do do that I'm afraid. Not everyone lies. You cannot tar everyone with the same brush. Things do work out.

[JudyKayTee]

We must travel in very different circles - that's the only explanation I can think of.

Look, we're on different sides here. That doesn't mean I don't hear what you are saying. I also think you are looking to justify your own actions, your own feelings. I honestly think you're in a bad spot. I just never allowed myself to get involved with anyone who was involved with someone else because I wouldn't do "that" to another woman AND I would never open myself up to a world of hurt. I managed a law firm. "We" did a lot of Family Court work - divorce, custody and so forth. I saw children in terrible pain because one of their parents cheated and the family was torn apart.

I've also heard the "we sleep in different rooms, we have nothing in common but, by the way, we're going away on vacation together" line.

I'm not saying marriages don't end. I'm not saying all marriages are happy. I am saying that children learn by what they see far more than by what they hear (or what "we" tell them). They see cheating, what do they think? It's okay?

Being married DOES set people "aside as different" if you are talking about dating. They are married. They've made promises and vows. Single people haven't (although I wouldn't get involved with someone who is unmarried but in a relationship). "Back in the day" in lived in NYC. Seemed like 70% of the men I met were (A) older; (B) separated. I could deal with older. "Separated" USUALLY meant that "he" was standing here and "she" was standing there.

I HOPE you aren't just sitting home, watching life go by, waiting for him to have the ability to take you out for a meal every now and then. If you are going to stay in this relationship (and it's my belief that one or the other of you will get bored and move on at some point) you need to be prepared in the event it ends. Don't make him your whole life.

Why do people sleep in separate rooms? I don't know. I do know that marriage is not all about sex or where you sleep. You don't know me. You don't know where I've been or what I've experienced - and that goes both ways. I also don't know you.

My late husband was pretty much an invalid for five years, in the hospital as much (if not more) than he was home. Five out of six Christmases, five out of six Thanksgiving Days, weeks during every Summer. At the very end I changed his diapers. Why do I mention any of this? First, because a relationship is not about sleeping in the same room or, for that mater, sex. I knew one thing for certain - as did he. I would be there for him no matter how good or bad things got. I guarantee that if things had been reversed he would have been there for me. We had one rule - no third parties, physically OR emotionally.

And I will add that this was not a long term marriage. We actually married in Cardiac Intensive Care and I knew from the day we married that I would be a widow. I just didn't know how soon.

I don't know your age or his but terrible things happen to people at every age. Will he be there for you?

I know I keep repeating myself but I work matrimonial/relationship surveillances for law firms. I won't work for individuals, which is beside the point. I can only address my experience BUT if I get to talk to the "other" person (and frequently I am asked to do so) I find that the married person is lying on both sides, looking the partner in the face and lying about his/her whereabouts and looking the "friend" in the face and doing the same thing. I see money spent on the "friend" which should go to the family. I see shattered children. I see (usually) wives who are working and raising children and maintaining a home because the family needs her income - and her partner is out, romancing someone with some of that money. That's the unemotional, dollar and cents side of things.