[need2learn]

Last summer I discovered there was a pinhole in the incoming water line between the city shut-off at the curb and my house---on my side, naturally. Told repair would require backhoe, about 4-5k, and replacing entire (about 15 ft or longer) line, tunneling under my 1937 brick porch and to the foundation/basement, uprooting small trees. All this for a pinhole out in the open lawn. I asked if it is possible to weld a new segment of pipe, because frankly I didn't have 5k and knew that my porch would crack, too. I was told yes, maybe, I'll ask my master plumber. Long story short, this was done without my final approval, Turns out this contractor was dishonest, contract was on a letterhead from defunct business, etc... and ever since the repair, the entire house has nightmarishly low water pressure. I've checked all the faucet filters, etc. I'm afraid when he welded the (already tiny lumen) pipe, he might have let the welding material ooze and harden inside the pipe, shutting off half the flow. Is there any hope it's a whole-house filter or valve that's clogged in my case? It takes 8 minutes to fill the kitchen sink, open full blast. There's not even enough pressure to run the DW or use a sink sprayer! I had hoped to add a BR upstairs but can barely flush the one I've got, now. Grateful for any advice I can get.--Anne

[hkstroud]

What kind of pipe? What size?

[speedball1]

Long story short, this was done without my final approval,

See your lawyer. If no contract was signed and the work was done without the homeowners approval then I'd check to see if I were liable for the bill.
Answer Harolds questions, What type of pipe do you have that must be welded? I can see no other option other then digging up the re[air and doing it right. I still think you have a case. The word "fraud" comes to mind. Good luck, Tom

[ballengerb1]

Good start guys. I am wondering how you detected a pin hole in your buried supply line. I would have gotten 3 bids from licensed/insured contractors. You likely should be doing that now while you consider sueing the original guy. You would have to dig up the repiar to prove any fraud anyway.

[massplumber2008]

Sorry guys, but I'm not buying fault on the plumbers part in any manner at this point. It actually sounds like a repair was done that was meant to help the customer out, if possible, and the plumber never got paid for it... *OUCH* Here, I have had many customers over the years with similar issues and large costs associated with the repairs. When possible, if I could help them by making a repair I would... if it failed it was not my fault, it was just time to bite the bullet and do the big job that was originally quoted, right?

More likely here will be that the pinhole repair failed or even that the pipe has sprung more leaks only this time the water isn't showing up in a spot it can readily be seen. Possible?

First thing I would recommend is looking at the water main inside the house and check for a pressure regulating valve... could be clogged. I'd disconnect the water meter and check flow there, too.

Finally, next I'd suggest getting a leak detection company out and see if that pinhole has grown to a real leaker or perhaps the main has sprung more leaks.

That's my thoughts!

Mark

[speedball1]

Hey Mark,
Did you miss this part?

Long story short, this was done without my final approval,

If there was no contract and no meeting of the minds then what's the beef?
And what's with this "weld repair"? Weld what? A galvanized pipe? When did we start to repair a pinhole leak with a welding machine? Why wasn't the bad piece cut out and replaced? Lotsa unanswered questions here. Regards, Tom

[massplumber2008]

I got it all. I know I've never made any REPAIRS with a contract... simple verbal agreement most of the time. Bigger jobs are, of course, another matter!

Like you said, Tom... lots of unanswered questions.

Mark

[speedball1]

I've never made any REPAIRS with a contract... simple verbal agreement most of the time

Mark,
Every time you agree to do a repair job for pay you enter into a verbal contract. A meet of the minds. The OP sez that he never gave a final agreement. That doesn't sound like a "meeting of the minds" to me. Regards, Tom

[jlisenbe]

Unfortunately, NeedToLearn has disappeared. I'd love to know how this gets resolved.

[need2learn]

I had no idea I would get this much input so soon--still very muich needed. It took me a while to get this info; I once knew it but lost it. Here is what I found from the St. Louis MO building code for service lines to the home

They must be galvanized iron or copper, Size
1"
1 1/2"
2"

Outside diameter
1.125"
1.625"
2.125"

Wall thickness
.065"
.072"
.083"

I do believe mine are the smallest--1 inch. I'm in the 1937 part of the city and it was a 2 BDR house originally, about 1400 sf.
I went to work believing this guy was going to show up with a crew and was on his way to get a permit...when I got home one bush was flattened and there was a 4 foot x 2 ft square of mud right over the pipe...which I found out was 4 ft deep down to the supply line, and that a 3 foot section had been replaced. I am not sure what it was made of, but the next day that plumber (not the lying contractor) showed up demanding more money for other repairs we'd discussed. They already had 1800.00 of my money and the plumber admitted he had never been asked about a backhoe job, and that the contractor would know it was a 4-5k job and that he must always ask the plumber first, before committing to a job. He also admitted, with some probing, that the weld job he'd done would have cost me a few hundred, if I'd hi8red a laborer to dig down to the pipe or dug it myself, and paid the plumber directly. Instead, the contractor kept my half up-front fee and paid the plumber a few hundred, and a day laborer to dig a hole...and promised the plumber I'd pay him another 800.00 for some minor other household repairs!

I sound (and felt like) like a prize idiot, I know, but it was a good friend at work (his ex sister-in-law, who'd known him 27 years) who recommended him, saying he'd done tons of work for her mother, yada, yada. I couldn't even find him to file charges or take him to court. Duh! And to think he went on and on about "woman alone, Tina's good friend, going to give her the fairest price." although I insisted he be paid a fair wage. I learned a lot, but not about plumbing. I hate to admit that it was actually 2 years ago, and I have suffered this situation ever since, being unable to afford a repair. The story is on Angie's list.

Thanks for any input you can give.

[need2learn]

So now you guys have the answers right, massplumber2008 and all?

I thought I paid to have the whole pipe replaced to the house, with 1800-something up front, and had asked about just sealing the pipe with some kind of patch because the water company whop found the leak suggested it.

I called the water company because a 2 foot diameter patch of the yard was getting moist, then mushy in dry weather. They used a sort of sonar listening device and said, "It's a small pinhole leak, on your side".

Roger, the contractor, said the whole line must be replaced, but he would surely ask the Master Plumber if replacing a section could be done, and refund the difference or pay it into more repairs, keeping only his fee.

Last I heard, he was on his way to get a permit, and that's why he and crew did not show up on time as planned, so that I had to leave for work. He promised to let me know immediately what the Plumber said.

Instead, he hired the plumber to cut and replaced a 3 foot section, which the plumber l;ater showed me, and told me was welded in. Roger the contractor obtained no permits, had no actual business anymore. Contractors are not required to be licensed here in St. Louis, and his letterhead and office address were outdated. I could take legal action but I had to afford a detective to find him first, and had no spare money to begin with.

As for biting the bullet, I do think, Massplumber2008, that offering an interim repair is okay IF both parties know it may be temporary or not work, and the honest likelihood of that happening, because sometimes that is just al the homeowner can do. When someone works with me this way, I accept the risk, tip him well for taking on a small job, recommend him to friends, and call him first when the tax return gets there and I can do it right. THAT's what Roger promised, IF the plumber said it was okay by city code and practically speaking.

Roger didn't want to blow 50.00 of his stolen funds on a permit, I guess. And after hours of online reading, I am not 100% sure patching (replacing a segment) of incoming city water line is even legal here. It would be hard to prove I did not know he had not filed a permit. I realized after the fact that if it was not permitted, I might end up paying massive fees to get the entire line replaced, or have my water shut off, and a fine levied.

In any case, I could not find him. Chris the plumber promised at first to do what Roger had promised he would (other minor plumbing repairs), and said he'd settle up with Roger later. Instead, he called back t say he'd had 2nd thoughts and would disappear, too.

So the 1 inch pipe has a 3 foot segment cut out and welded in, and yes, I imagine there has been a lot of sediment. To think it might be sediment in a major valve, vs. what I had feared (welding material protruding into the inner space of the pipe, cutting the flow in half!)...

Thanks everyone for the input. I suppose I need a master plumber for the whole-house valve check, etc? I am green as can be and have few tools, but will try DIY things... am learning... have to--no money!

[need2learn]

I mean 1800 up front, balance to be paid when work done... depending on what was done, a few hundred and a refund, vs. whole line and me paying around 700 more... which seemed like a lot to me, not being familiar with rates. I gave Roger so much up front (thinking it was much more than half) because it was almost the 4th of July weekend, and he "let slip" he and his crew were hurting for money for even the holiday... it being the nadir of contracting business that summer.

In no way did I authorize the mend without prior discussion, and in any case Roger knew all along he never intended to "do the job right", because, as Chris the plumber said in disgust, he needed days' notice for a backhoe and crew, and he had not even called the plumber until that very morning... after I'd gone to work!

[massplumber2008]

Hi Anne

Looks like we have some reading to do here... thank you for posting an update. As you can see there are concerned people here and we look forward to assisting you with this.

Pop back in the AM sometime and we'll see what we can think of, OK?

Thanks again!

Mark

[need2learn]

Thanks, Mark; I sure will! If it's a little fuzzy about the $$, just know that the `1800 was meant to cover about 2/3 of the whole-line repair and some smaller in-house stuff (a low-ball for that much, I know now), with the plumber to get a few hundred if the pipe could be repaired, and a refund for me or the in-house repairs... but if the pipe needed replacing, all the 1800 and a few hundred more for the in-house and remainder of the whole line. The plumber got his fee, and was not part of the planned scam. But he would not reveal Roger's location or even contact info.

[hkstroud]

I started to make my response earlier in the thread but decided to wait for more information. I'm glad I did. My initial response was more like Mark's except Mark was more diplomatic than I.

There is no doubt that you got scammed and scammed big time. The "contractor" is a scam artist and pretty good at it. The decision to take a third or fourth hand recommendation was a mistake. But that's hind sight and we all have 20/20 hind sight. In justification of that decision, it can be very hard to find good, reliable and honest service and repair companies and personnel. That's true no matter what the trade, be it automotive repair, plumbing, roofing or any other trade. The concept of getting three estimates is good, but lets face not always possible or practical.

You got scammed and it doesn't look like there is much you can do about it. Nothing you can do but try not to let it happen again. Notice that I said try, if the scammer is good enough, he can still cheat you no matter what. Your best defense against unscrupulous persons is information. Before engaging services of any one, get as much information you can about the subject matter, be it plumbing, automotive repair, roofing, carpentry or any service. Scammers do not discriminate against women, they will cheat anyone. They usually engage the "customer" enough to find out just how much the "customer' does or does not know. That's how they know who and how. Women are not the only customers that know very little about such things.

I disagree with you that the "plumber" was not in on the deal. First, if he wasn't, he would have not been working with or for the " was not in on the deal. First, if he wasn't, he would have not been working with or for the ". He knows that the ". He knows that the " is dishonest. Second, no legitimate sub contractor would accept a deal of "Here's a partial payment and the customer will pay you more" is dishonest. Second, no legitimate sub contractor would accept a deal of "plumber". The "plumber" was just trying to scam you for more money.
No respectable plumber would have attempted such a repair to begin with. He would know that it wouldn't be satisfactory and he would be blamed. If you insisted on a patch job he would have not attempted to fix the leak by welding. A skilled welder may have been able to weld it, but the pipe would have been so rusted away as to be very difficult and the "plumber" is not a welder. The "plumber" probably cut out a section of pipe and replaced it using a union fitting which may or may not be acceptable for underground repairs by the code in your area.

In most jurisdictions it is the contractor's responsibility to obtain permits, so it is unlikely you will get any repercussions by the city/country/water authority. Indeed communications with them may yield some positive results. You imply that you at least know how contact the "Bobcat". The municipal authorities may not be able to help you directly, but contacting them would at least alert them about these two individuals.

Unfortunately you are not only out of the money, you are left with the original problem, which is 70 year old pipe that is badly corroded and blocked with sediment. That's a problem you will probably have to address at some time in the future.

Just for your information
Excavation is the problem, cost of material is almost insignificant. It can be done by machine or since it is only 4 foot deep, it can be done by hand. If it is only 15 foot between the street and the house, that's a pretty small area to work in with a machine. A legitimate plumbing contractor would probably use a skid steer with a back hoe attachment, communally called a " wide with minimum disturbance to the surrounding area. The biggest problem will be tunneling under the porch. Depending on the distance the a contractor may do that with a machine or may do it by hand.

Your information about the type of pipe used today is probably a little out dated. Copper and PVC pipe is the most commonly used types of piping today. The size would be 3/4' or 1". Since it is not necessary to remove the old pipe, only to dig a trench for the new pipe, he may very well use a trenching machine. That's a machine that digs small trench 4 to 6"What am I going to have to do to fix this?".

Since you are using the screen name Need2learn, I will repeat, information is your best friend, Information and logic. I'm sure you know now, with hind sight, that you should have ask around more. Not about who to call, but about what was necessary to correct the problem. Should have ask the person that came out and told you that you had a leak, "Replace the pipe." I'm sure you would have been told "Have you had any problems? What did you do?" Ask your neighbors, "contractor ". Their pipes are also 70 years old. You can't be the first to have a leak. Surely you know someone who knows a little about plumbing. Ask several people. Take all that you are told and put it together. It then has to be logical, it has to make sense, it all has to fit together. That's how you weed out incorrect information. If some bit of information doesn't fit, disregard it and keep asking. Logic would tell you that if a pipe has rusted through in one place, it won't be long before it will rust through in another.

I'm sure now with hind sight, you can see why attempting to repair a 70 pipe, corroded to the point of leaking, and filled with rust, corrosion and sediment was not a good decision.

So you got scammed. You certainly aren't the first and probably won't be the last. Stop beating yourself up.

I don't understand the comment about posting on Angie's list. Did you get the "ifs ands and buts" from Angie's list? I know nothing about Angie's list except their advertisements. Logic that tells me that that is not a good way to find services. That and the fact that I just had a customer call me about replacing a water heater. The contractor from Angie's list proposed to replace his water heater for $1450. I think he even threw a few "Ifs, ands and buts to used later if possible. A $500 water heater and about two hours work. I replaced the heating element, cut off the bottom of a door, diagnosed a problem with a garage door that he said he would fix, made repairs to the legs of a sofa for the wife. My charge was $150 (it took a long time for the water heater to drain). I'm not on Angie's list.

[massplumber2008]

Nice Job, Harold! Nothing to add here... :)

[need2learn]

Dear hkstroud,

Thank you SO much for taking the time to answer in such detail. I usually do check around quite a bit, and you're right this time I did not do so as much... and in retrospect, since I was at the time losing my house over medical bills, I would not have had the 4-5k for the full operation, anyway, if that is what it would cost. Still, I would have gotten lots more info and more than one bid, for sure.

Ironically, when I called the water dept to ask how long I had to repair the pipe, the person who extended me a grace period of 90 days (because the leak was no risk to anyone but me), was the one who suggested a patch of some kind; I think he was thinking something like a sleeve and ring clamps or the plumber's equivalent you mentioned.

I do believe one neighbor had it done the previous spring, but he is a geologist who works hand-in-glove with contractors, and he and all 4 of my nearest neighbors (not nice ones, either)are in similar work, and so what they spend is never close to what I'd have to. I did ask, and that one did say about the same, that 4-5k was usual. (They tear out and then replace the sidewalks, too, for the job.)

Yes, galvanized iron, etc. seems to be what they had back in 1937; it and copper; what I posted here co- was pasted directly from MO code/web site. Copper is what the line was going to be if replaced. And I do remember being shocked by how small it is... 3/4 inch does sound right.

Chris the plumber was not a co-planner, I'd guess, not this particular time... but yes, it is incredibly wrong, and illegal as well, to refuse to provide information about a crime. I was so ignorant (despite the fact that I usually do spend weeks researching and asking around, simply because I was too sick to do any of it right then, though I'm much better now) that I did not realize Roger himself was not the actual plumber. I thought he had some contracting work but from the way he talked he was a plumber himself; so I did not expect there to be Chris until he showed up the next day.

(The "Master Plumber" was an advisor brought in just to settle the question of whether a repair was possible. I know there are Journeyman, etc. levels of skill that can allow for certain work; I looked at it ignorantly like LPN vs RN, and he let me do so.)

So although I have Roger Reiter's (and his brother Jason, also of "Reiter Brothers' Construction" who was right there helping) full names and Roger's former address, and my coworker T. knows where he lives but pretends she doesn't, and I have both men's cell phone numbers, that's all I ever had. I could only find one licensed plumber online with the name Chris, in Florissant, MO, a St. Louis suburb, but how do I know "Chris" truly licensed or even using his real name?

Ironically, I do have the voice-mails Roger left me, saying he was on his way to get the permit, and meet the crew in my yard, and not to worry; he'd call me right away. (Which is why I don't worry about libel claims.) I also have the one from Chris, saying at first he'd be there to make good on the smaller repairs because he felt bad about what Roger had done... and then his second one, saying he was washing his hands of all of it and referring me back to Roger... but refusing to share his or Roger's contact information.

Yes, I got scammed horribly, was very embarrassed (even now) and all the more painfully, because not was Tina a friend, but I had to go on being nice to her at work-- because everyone knows you never hire family or friends, right?. and bringing a "personal" issue into the work arena is a no-no that would have dumped back on me at a time when I was not well enough to job-hunt.

"Angie's List" is a monthly subscription service to "insider" ratings of now everything from bricklayers to doctors. It purports to be--and once was--members-only insider info like this. It was meant to help neophytes like me avoid being ripped off by garage workers, trades and so on, especially for women because we, like the elderly, are more often the targets. (I have learned to imply it is my husband they will be dealing with, and that I am just the messenger, so they will be worried that he knows more than I do, which I also imply. It works, too, much of the time.)But I know men get ripped off, too.

I wrote a bad rating and complaint against Roger, but without a mailing address Angie's List complaint resolution service (sort of like the BB) would not follow up nor publish the complaint, only the rating. And they have grown so commercial they are no longer useful except to avoid the worst service and scams. Still, I've been ripped off a couple of other times. It's amazingly easy, even when you check the BBB, the license, the references, and yes, Angie's List. I had one guy try to bill me more for 4 hours handyman work than he would charge for a full day, because although he was here only 90 minutes, his minimum is 4 hours, and "the hourly rate is higher for short days, due to the lost time I could be working elsewhere a full day"! I kid you not. That work never got finished.

And had his wife claimed he has memory problems. She learned I was a nurse/diabetes educator, and later had the nerve to contact me 2 months later, to say he was in the hospital with diabetes out of control, and was launching into the whole story, essentially asking for expert free diabetes-care advice indirectly. Still with the work never finished!

But I am relieved to see that people like you exist, and grateful for the advice. I wish I had a way to find people like you and some of the other "good guys" here. I do check more carefully now. I am also, though still recovering in every way, $$$ included, in a sturdier position. Even then if I had not been forced to make a repair by law, and way short of the money (1800 was my tax return), I'd have been much more cautious. That and Tina's 27-year knowledge of him. I do believe she was somewhat shocked,herself, but not enough to tattle, as she should have, having recommended him to me.


I would be curious to know what you guys think of the "burst-pipe" method of replacement, since I will probably have to replace the pips soon. (No sign of another leak yet>) And are you still thinking it might the pressure filter or whole house valve plugged with sediment? The city replaced the line when a water main burst 2 years prior, and the road in front of my house caved in. After that I had dirt in my water for days, so I am sure it was partially clogged already with sand and crud from that repair, but it is MUCH worse since the Roger Reiter fiasco.

Anne
Anne.

[need2learn]

I mean the city replaced their part of the line, of course, from the shut-off to the main under the street near the curb. I think the pressure is what made the rusty pipe wall give way and started the leak, since it happened soon after, and just took 2 years to get big enough to wet the surface.

[need2learn]

... and yes, I never thought of going to the water company, will do so now. Thanks!

It may be that they do have permits he did obtain that would have a current address, etc. I wasn't able to get a reverse phone look-up, only a satellite pinpoint of the owner's location, which turned out to be where his father lived, in a former address.

Of course if they check the pipe and it's not according to code, I don't have 4-5k lying around just yet, either... on the mend but still in progress, not there.

[need2learn]

Sorry, one more clarification: I don't just mean the handyman tried to charge me a higher hourly rate for a half-day, which I know is done legitimately. I mean he was going to charge me the 4-hour block of time, for 90 minute's indoor work (interrupted by ice storm, so that I let him leave early for his safety).

The hourly rate for the 4-hour block of time was so much higher that it amounted to more than an 8-hour day at the usual base rate. His wife tried to say he didn't seem unwell, but had memory problems, and logic problems, and she would make sure he finished the work at the proper rate for 4 hours... and the next I heard he was in the hospital. I was even dumber in those days.