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micdep · Dec 9, 2011, 09:16 AM

I have been servicing other company for more then 7 years. They never singed any writing contract, but they receive my copy of contract but never come back to me. That was 7 years ago. Just like that they write a short email and they wanted me to "disappear" in less then a week, no exploration. There was not even one problem (complain etc)for that time. I did not have even opportunity to clear my equipment from that place. I am doing janitorial service. I also use new equipment and other form of cleaning that others do not (I have many good ideas). And now some others can see what and how I did it without my approval. Can some one help me with it? Should I go to the court or... Thanks, Eric

JudyKayTee · Dec 9, 2011, 09:37 AM

Yes, you can go to Court for any equipment they refuse to return to you. I don't see that they are required to give you advance notice that you are terminated if you are an independent contractor. The contract, of course, is unsigned and not binding.

Write them a letter, send it return receipt, give them 14 days to return your equpment.

Is that what you want to know?

micdep · Dec 9, 2011, 10:17 AM

Not really... in the contract that they did not sing was a information that they have to give at least one month in advance. I have few similar situation and each time they give me at least one month in advance notice. Plus I heard that there is a low that unsigned contract after when you start working for then is as sing one. I have to check this with a layer.

JudyKayTee · Dec 9, 2011, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by micdep

Not really .... in the contract that they did not sing was a information that they have to give at least one month in advance. I have few similar situation and each time they give me at least one month in advance notice. Plus I heard that there is a low that unsigned contract after when you start working for then is as sing one. I have to check this with a layer.

I wouldn't pay an Attorney - it's a waste of money. There is no such law. An unsigned contract is a piece of paper with writing on it, no more and no less.

It doesn't matter what the contract said or didn't say - your "employer" did NOT agree with its terms. If the "employer" had signed it, then it would be a different story.

So you've been terminated before and each time you were given a month's notice? Apparently those were nicer "employers" than the last one who terminated you.

There is no such law.

And, again, I simply do not understand why someone asks a question, is furnished a very clear cut answer... and then argues with the person who answered. BUT - retain an Attorney and ask about what you've "heard." I'd like to know what the Attorney says, what law he/she quotes.

Fr_Chuck · Dec 9, 2011, 01:47 PM

Agreed, you as a business person failed to get the contact signed, you had the option not do to any more work for them without it. But you continued to work without it,

So they may stop your work for them at any time. They may tell others how you cleaned, or may even do it theirself.

You can sue for any loss of supplies or equipment that belonged to you if it was taken and not returned.

micdep · Dec 9, 2011, 05:12 PM

Well.. what I find... its nice to have internet...
"Enforceability of Unsigned Agreements
A commonly held misconception is that a party cannot be held to the terms of a contract that it didn't sign. Because even oral contracts are enforceable, it follows that "[t]he absence of an authorized signature does not defeat the existence of [a] contract." Galloway Corp. v. S.B. Ballard Constr. Co., 464 S.E.2d 349, 356 (Va. 1950)"
There is more to this...

ScottGem · Dec 9, 2011, 05:35 PM

And that is the problem with the Internet. It makes information available without interpretation of that info.

But I actually think you may have a case, but its slim. If you can prove that you gave them a contract to perform services and they verbally agreed to have you perform those services and paid you according to the terms of the contract, then they can be held to the terms of the contract.

However, its not a slam dunk and you need an attorney to fight this for you.

The only thing you would be entitled to, is payment for that one month's notice and the return of your equipment. What I would do is show up there on the next business day and go in to pick up your equipment. If they refuse you can call the police, if you have sufficient proof that the equipment is yours, or tell them you will be back with a court order.

JudyKayTee · Dec 9, 2011, 05:49 PM

Actually that particular case invovles the following issue - summarized by me: On August 17, 1988 Galloway Corp entered into a contract with Rowe Properties for the construction... using a pre-printed American Institute of Architects with attachments. Galloway made changes in the contract and then initialed those changes. Rowe, in fact, signed the contract without initialing the changes. The "ultimate issue" per the Court's wording was whether the terms of the subcontracts shift the risk of the owner's default on payment for labor and materials from the general contractor to the subcontractors.

How does that pertain to this situation where there is no allegation of ANY signed contract and, as far as I can tell, no contractor and no sub?

This is also a Virginia, USA, case. Isn't the OP in Canada which, I believe, has its own legal system and own case law and does NOT follow US law?

How does that apply to this situation?

ScottGem · Dec 10, 2011, 07:00 AM

This is what I meant by finding info and knowing how to use it are two different things.

But the elements of a contract are an offer and an acceptance. The OP made an offer in the form of a contract, the customer accepted that offer, by agreeing for the OP to do the work and paying for that work. As long as the contract was given BEFORE the acceptance and the payment was in the amount stated in the contract, I think the OP has a chance of enforcing the contract.

The main problem I see here is that enforcing the contract gets the OP very little. They can sue for for the lost month of fees. Unless the contract has penalties for violations, that's all they can get.

Getting their equipment back has little if anything to do with the contract. As long as they have proof of ownership, they can go pick up the equipment at any time that the offices are open. If the customer refuses to allow them to pick up the equipment, they go for a court order to allow it. If they can prove that the customer allowed another service to use their equipment, especially if it revealed trade secrets, that would damage the OP's company, they have an even bigger lawsuit. But proving that will be difficult.

So my advice is to go pick up your equipment at the first opportunity. If they refuse to allow it, then hire an attorney.

Stringer · Dec 10, 2011, 08:31 AM

Did the client in any way offer a reason for the termination of your service? Did anything occur that you have not mentioned?

Was any obvious policy broken? Such as theft, entering an area that is restricted, failure to secure the building (alarm), etc.

Any of these or other violations would cause immediate removal of your service.

I agree with the other posters, it isn't worth doing anything now except getting your supplies and equipment returned.

In almost twenty years in this business I have never started a job without a signed contract and this is an example why.

Stringer

micdep · Dec 10, 2011, 09:13 AM

OK.. I would like to add some information. We did not have even one complain. There wasn't any policy broken, there wasn't any etc, it was perfect... we were almost like family. I find out that they hire East Indian services for 1/2 of the price.

ScottGem · Dec 10, 2011, 09:30 AM

That matters not! Even if you had a signed contract, they had the right to terminate. You are running a business and sentiment rarely enters into it.

So what you need to focus on is getting your equipment back.

Stringer · Dec 10, 2011, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by micdep

OK.. I would like to add some information. We did not have even one complain. There wasn't any policy broken, there wasn't any etc, it was perfect ... we were almost like family. I find out that they hire East Indian services for 1/2 of the price.

The abrupt dismissal indicated something else based upon my experience. Ok, if that is not the reason then...

From my experience then I would tread carefully. When a company comes in that low in pricing then usually their service suffers and an opportunity could exist for you again. This has happened to me on occasion and I was able to get the job back. Only a suggestion.

I would get your equipment back and leave on a good note if you want a chance to get it back again. On average it took me about six months and I had it back. Keep in touch with them and make yourself available, that is only good business however demand a signed contract obviously.

Stringer

JudyKayTee · Dec 10, 2011, 10:42 AM

Nothing you have posted matters EXCEPT that there is no signed contract, no agreement, apparently no agreement even of the minds because they fired you without notice and you seem to think they had to give you notice.

It's business. They hired someone else for whatever reason. That happens when people contract with other people for services - you get terminated when they no longer need your services. If you aren't protected, well, it's still over.

Get your equipment back and move on.

It's the same as any other employment without a union or a contract - for whatever reason the company decides they can function without you OR with someone else in your place and you're let go. Employment at will is what it's called.

These are rough economic times - if another cleaning company works for less and your former "employer" is happy with them they both gain something - the cost of doing business goes down for the "employer" and other people find work.

And just for my own info, where did you get the Court case that you think pertains to your matter?

LisaB4657 · Dec 10, 2011, 01:21 PM

For future reference, a court may determine that a contract exists even though it was unsigned. It depends on how the parties acted. They will imply the existence of a contract if the actions and intentions were apparent. I've seen it happen with leases as well as contracts for services to be provided.

In this case I would diplomatically make arrangements to get the equipment back and send a letter thanking them for using your services in the past, expressing disappointment that they don't require your services now, and telling them that you'll be happy to work with them in the future if they find themselves dissatisfied with their new cleaning service.

JudyKayTee · Dec 10, 2011, 01:23 PM

News to me, Lisa. Absolutely news to me. Do you think that is the situation here?

I thought the fact that OP believed he was entitled to advance notice and the "employer" did not that it indicated no meeting of the minds.

This is a shock to me!

LisaB4657 · Dec 10, 2011, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

News to me, Lisa. Absolutely news to me. Do you think that is the situation here?

I think it very well could be. A court could decide that a contract was implied because a written agreement had been provided and the parties had performed according to the terms of that agreement for so many years. This would be particularly true if the court decides that the OP was treated unfairly.

I thought the fact that OP believed he was entitled to advance notice and the "employer" did not that it indicated no meeting of the minds.

This is a shock to me!

The meeting of the minds took place years earlier when both parties started and continued performing. The OP said the employer had previously given notice a few times.

All of this is probably immaterial, though. I think in this case the OP shouldn't sue, but instead should get his equipment back and leave on a positive note. No point in burning bridges.

ScottGem · Dec 10, 2011, 01:59 PM

Thanks Lisa, that's what I was trying to say.

But I agree, With you and Stringer given what the OP has said about hiring a new cleaner at Half the fee, they should try to not burn their bridges.

micdep · Dec 10, 2011, 04:00 PM

OK... to clear some of the information. This is the exact copy of the letter I receive: "(Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 12:40 PM) Eric I would like to cancel your cleaning services at the XXXXXXXXXX starting in December. I am not sure if you are around right now but maybe we can talk when you get back from holidays".
I did forged mention that I receive this letter when I was on 2 weeks holidays. I did pickup my equipment today and there was shock to many people working there that I am not around there any more. Even the family members of the owner were surprise and give me a hag. I did leave on a positive note in my last letter but also I did induced my last (final) invoice.

Stringer · Dec 10, 2011, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by micdep

OK ... to clear some of the information. This is the exact copy of the letter I receive: "(Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 12:40 PM) Eric I would like to cancel your cleaning services at the XXXXXXXXXX starting in December. I am not sure if you are around right now but maybe we can talk when you get back from holidays".
I did forged mention that I receive this letter when I was on 2 weeks holidays. I did pickup my equipment today and there was shock to many people working there that I am not around there any more. Even the family members of the owner were surprise and give me a hag. I did leave on a positive note in my last letter but also I did induced my last (final) invoice.

Then that is all you can do presently. However to avoid 'out of site out of mind' I would contact them possibly ever three months or so to see how things are going. Don't over do it and even ask them if this is OK with them, that will possibly ease you back in.

Stringer