[excon]

Hello:

Have you heard right wingers complain about the 50% of Americans who pay NO federal taxes? Of course, you have. What do you think the wingers are trying to say?? Seems to me, they're trying to say that the POOR should pay more taxes... Doesn't it seem like it to you??

Then, when Democrats suggest raising taxes on the super duper wealthy, they're accused of class warfare. Hmmm?? That ain't right. It ain't right at all.

Before we get into it, I want to define "shared sacrifice". It's NOT the wealthy paying for everything... It's NOT the poor or the middle class paying for everything... It's SHARED. It's like that HUGE log a team of Nave Seal recruits are required to carry... You know the one.

Now, with a dozen people carrying the log, it really wouldn't be too heavy if one of the guys stopped for a smoke.. The others COULD carry the load. But, they'd NOTICE that somebody thought he wasn't required to share, and they WOULDN'T like it one bit. Will sharing make the difference between the log getting carried or not? No, but it WILL make a difference in how everybody FEELS about each other.

What's so hard about that?

excon

[tomder55]

"It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master."
(Ayn Rand )

"It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self-interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own neccessities but of their advantages."
(Adam Smith )

BTW... Warren Buffett owes $1 billion in back taxes .

[speechlesstx]

You should stop going by what it "seems" to you and focus on what's actually being said.

Is half the country poor?

[paraclete]

You are living with a spirit of poverty 50% can find no way out of their predicament and 50% want more

[speechlesstx]

No Clete, I want a real answer. Is half the country poor?

[paraclete]

Speech statistically 1 in 6 live in poverty. Being poor is a relative issue because the only measure you have is income or access to services. You cannot judge the level of poverty by the impact of the tax system because the tax system has been used to subsidise certain activities such as home ownership.

EX has put another strawman out there, that not paying tax includes you among the poor. By his standard some millionaires and billionaires are poor because of the level of tax they pay.

Let me put it this way, I pay no income tax but this doesn't mean I live below the poverty level

[talaniman]

Hey Ex, you mean with closing American factories and going over seas for slave labor, or stuffing their mattresses with tax money and loopholes, or sucking all the money from the economy, sending youngsters over seas to die for them, or changing the name of fat cat to job creator, or making everyone grateful to be a dish washer, or maid, or calling firefighters, teachers, and police, lazy greedy bums?

Or the one where the right is mad about a Democrat, who happens to be a black guy in the White House??

Or the one that thinks a fence will keep them safe from the brown people, and their kids?

Or the one that can't stand the idea of a gay person with a gun, or wedding ring?

Or the one that can't stand people voting?

Or the one that doesn't believe in building anything they can't profit from?

Or the one that can't stand slavery being outlawed, so they hate the idea of a former slave living next door, or being as smart as they are?

Or the one where after they get theirs, they burn the bridge behind them?

Or the one where they don't think, they know they are better than the lazy bum down the street?

Be clear will you, which class war are you talking about. There seems to be a bunch of 'em going on.

[paraclete]

Hey Tal you left some out

What about the War on Drugs, seems the outcome of that is class warfare

How about the War on Terror, which has terrorised millions of Muslims. That is a class war

But you are right you really do have a bad case of class warfare with your rich unwilling to pay for the bad policies they lobbied to get legislated

[talaniman]

I got tired of typing Clete, and its Sunday football too, but politicians love to incite and fire up there political base to win elections. They all do it, and it's the biggest game in town.

That's why the world has to suffer, because any good news out of Washington keeps the Democrat in the White House, and that's all the Right Wing Cares about. They can't even fake it, and act like they want good policies that will work.

[paraclete]

Thats why the world has to suffer, because any good news out of Washington keeps the Democrat in the White House, and thats all the Right Wing Cares about. They can't even fake it, and act like they want good policies that will work.

I didn't figure you for a Republican Tal but surely a Democrat in the White House doesn't mean the whole world suffers, just a small part of it, although I will admit the suffering is spreading. I can't really say it is down to him though, he is only Johnny come lately. He has condescended to come for a visit in November so we will see if the level of suffering increases then.

From observation, and of course it is a long way off, these would be politicians seem all to speak off the same play bill. It seems both sides want tax reform, both sides want debt reduction, must be confusing

[speechlesstx]

So in other words, ex is not interested in answering my question.

[talaniman]

I can answer your question Steve, while the money has dried up for many of the American people there is still access to food, water, and shelter, and even medical care but that's still poverty in America, but no half is a bit high but 20-30 percent in some areas are unacceptable as a nation, since half of those numbers are children. Now they say the nation average is one in six, and that translates to almost 60 million people. And as I say half are children.

That number will trend up as the stimulus money wanes even more in the next 8 months. And yes even here in Texas those numbers are starting to rise, reflected in the unemployment numbers, and rising number of Medicaid, and welfare recipients increase. Most disturbing will be the cuts to come in education grants, mostly in the health care sector. Targeted at unemployed youth in this state, and the loss of federal dollars to hospitals and clinics that depend on those programs.

If you examine the trends that go back more than ten years, (you could go further if you include stagnated wages, and the aging population), you will see in the NEXT 10 years, a doubling of those poverty numbers simply because there will be more people who cannot qualify for the more technical better paying jobs, or even the vocational ones as we transition to a continuing higher level of educational qualifications.

Yeah we could lose a couple of generations to this brain drain which will be the basis of the growing poverty challenges we face now.

Did that answer your question, Steve?

[smoothy]

Democrats think 50% should pay no taxes... and the other half that does work to earn their money should pay EVERYTHING.

And the left doesn't understand why jobs and money are going overseas. I'm hardly wealthy and I'm stuffing money overseas since I'm one of that 50% that actually does have to pay taxes. And yes... there are ways to do it that are essentually untracible... but I'm not revealing how.

[NeedKarma]

Democrats think 50% should pay no taxes

Weird you think that since policy was enacted by a Republican.

In 2007, about 38 percent of households paid no federal income tax, a figure that jumped to 49 percent in 2008, according to estimates by the Tax Policy Center.

In 2008, President George W. Bush signed a law providing most families with rebate checks of $300 to $1,200.

[talaniman]

You are so wrong here my friend. The left knows full well why jobs go overseas and it has NOTHING to do with taxes, but MO' money from easy untapped markets and cheap labor. If it was about TAXES, where the freak was the capital investment for the last 10 years, when the FAT CATS not only had low taxes, and low wages, but loop holes up the butt?

The present recession and the BS about taxes was from greed, and robbery, that sucked all the loot out of the system. As long as you make this about taxes, you will never see that YOU WERE ROBBED.

Go ahead keep hollering taxes and lazy poor people, but you were robbed as much as I was. Now the villains are holed up with there loot, and you are screaming at the posse.

They have money to buy more politicians and holler uncertainty, while YOU, and the minions they stole from (me too!! ) defend them.

Unbelievable.

[smoothy]

Really, that's what you want to think...

Taxes area HUGE part of why jobs went overseas... no its not the only reason, but it's a big part of it.

Liberals believe 90% taxes are fair for those that work the hardest, yet those who make no real effort to get ahead should get a free pass. Soun'ds like the old USSR... why break a sweat when the powers that be won't let you earn more than the guy selling cigaretts on the corner. Why bust your butt with 8 years of college and study when you get criticised for making more than the high school dropout that's barely literate stocking shelves at Walmart.

And that its not fair to expect everyone to pay equal percentages of their income in taxes. 24% of 10K is far less than 24% of 10 million... the "rich" still pay far more. But they get raped equally percentage wise.

Where equal actually IS the only "FAIR" thing to do.

[speechlesstx]

I can answer your question Steve, while the money has dried up for many of the American people their is still access to food, water, and shelter, and even medical care but thats still poverty in America, but no half is a bit high but 20-30 percent in some areas are unacceptable as a nation, since half of those numbers are children. Now they say the nation average is one in six, and that translates to almost 60 million people. and as I say half are children..

Did that answer your question, Steve?

Thanks Tal, but not really. It's actually about 15 percent in poverty as defined by the Census Bureau.

Based on the 2005 records available, the median "poor" in America have air conditioning, a clothes washer, a clothes dryer, ceiling fans, a cordless phone, two color televisions, cable or satellite TV, a DVD player, VCR, refrigerator, an oven and stove, a microwave, and a coffee maker.

54.5% have a cell phone, 38.2 % have a computer, 32.2% have more than 2 TVs, 17.9% have a big screen TV, 9% have 2 refrigerators and 6% have a jacuzzi.

I'm not poor and I got my first big screen TV in December, I only have 1 fridge and I can only dream of owning a jacuzzi right now. As a scholar named James Q. Wilson said in 2002, “The poorest Americans today live a better life than all but the richest persons a hundred years ago.”

"Poor" is a deceptive term used in this country. Poor is my sponsored child Sizari in Peru. Poor is my sponsored child Imelda in El Salvador. Poor is my sponsored child Robert in an AIDS stricken community in Africa. Poor is not 3 TVs and a jacuzzi.

Now, ex said ”Seems to me, they're trying to say that the POOR should pay more taxes."

All I'm saying is half of America is not "poor" and most of them are definitely not too poor to not only contribute a few bucks to running this nation, but grabbing that mop you mentioned and helping someone else out just as I do.

Most of the rest of America's "poor" don't have it so bad, but for those who do I'm all for giving them a hand up - and helping them get to where they can "pay it forward" as well instead of not only keeping them on the Federal teat, but adding to the welfare rolls so some liberal can feel good about his warped view of "fairness".

[excon]

Is half the country poor?

Hello again, Steve:

They're poor enough to earn LESS than is required to pay federal income tax - which is fine by me. As previously discussed, they pay PLENTY of taxes. The class war I speak of is YOUR desire to fill the hole we find ourselves in, by taxing the working poor more instead of the super rich.

I'd go the other way.

excon

[excon]

All I'm saying is half of America is not "poor" and most of them are definitely not too poor to not only contribute a few bucks to running this nation, but grabbing that mop you mentioned and helping someone else out just as I do.

Hello again, Steve:

You're not going back to that right wing lie that 47% of the people pay NO taxes at all, are you?? If that were true, then I'd agree. They should contribute something to running the nation...

BUT IT'S NOT TRUE!!

excon

[talaniman]

If you are a working guy then you do pay a payroll tax, 20 to 30 percent of your wages, and that's money the government uses for services and programs.

Even if you get a refund after filing, you lose X amount of dollars every time you get paid. So that's a straw man that poor don't pay taxes, and it's that Government that allows for being poor in America to be a lot better than anywhere in the world. That doesn't mean we aren't poor, just not as hopelessly poor as 99 percent of the world.

And I know you are aware of the other American economy, run by poor people, for poor people, who barter, and hustle every day, to get those TV's and good they normally cannot get from the real economy. Its been going on for a few centuries, sort of like giving the doctor a chicken for services.

So just because you aren't dirt poor, doesn't mean you aren't poor, and by the way many in some areas of America ARE dirt poor. And there standards of living is abysmal, and make no mistake though the Consensus Bureau put an average number on poverty with perks, you cannot deny that the number is higher in areas where poor people and disadvantaged people live, heck Steve right here in Texas the unemployment numbers were higher than the national average BEFORE the housing bubble burst, and despite all the jobs created here, its still ticking up slowly.

WHY??