[Fr_Chuck]

Ok, you can only explunge a record that is convicted, so since there is no conviction, there is nothing you can explunge.

I will still argue despite what is said, that national fingerpints are not destroyed. They are keep at least in National Security.
Also remember fingerprints don't say you ever did a crime, that record is the criminal records, Fingerprints are on file only to prove Identity. 100s of thousands of people get fingerprinted each year for all sorts of other reasons.

[c___l]

So convictions are eligible for expungement, but since I received diversion, it cannot be expunged? Does that mean convicted cases can be wiped from your record, but this one can't? It seems a bit unfair then? Or is there any way this can be erased from your record?

I'm not quite sure about the fingerprinting, the diversion officer at the court told me to apply for fingerprint destruction after 5 months of withdrawing this case.

I was still wondering about the police checks for employment. Do these types of cases show up on the check? (VSS Vulnerable Sector Screening to be specific)

Thanks, FR_Chuck and JudyKayTee once again.

[c___l]

I recently read this somewhere:

Although a discharge is not considered a conviction, a record of an absolute or conditional discharge is kept by CPIC and by the charging police agency. The Criminal Records Act states that, except in exceptional circumstances:

No record of an absolute discharge may be disclosed after one year from the discharge date
If the discharge is conditional, no record may be disclosed after three years.
When these specified times have passed, the automated CPIC database is purged of discharge records. Further, any hard copy documents, including fingerprints, are destroyed. In effect, once the purge date has passed, CPIC has no record of the discharged offence. However, a record of an offence for which an individual has received a conditional or absolute discharge remains in existence after the purge date has passed.

Does theft under 5000 fall under this category of a "discharge", so that my records will be purged after one year, or is there some other circumstance for theft under?

[xsosorry]

Hi c___l, I think that while the advice here on crossing the border into the US is good, most of the people offering advice are form the US, and their justice system is different than ours. I am in a similar situation as you and this is what I have discovered from talking to lawyers and researching:

A discharge is a certain disposition of charges, just like a withdrawal is a disposition of charges, but the two are different. A discharge means it is ON your record as a non-conviction, meaning that a basic level 1 criminal record check will not show it. However, a level 3 criminal record check WILL show any discharges that have NOT been purged/removed, where a withdrawal will still not be disclosed. Discharges are purged (removed) from the system after 1 or 3 years for an absolute discharge and a conditional discharge respectively. In your case, your charges were withdrawn, so you do not have to wait for anything to be removed because that's not what your disposition was. However, regardless of ANY disposition (even if your charges were acquitted, i.e. you are completely innocent), you will still have arrest records and police records, which include your fingerprints. This will show up on a level 4 criminal record check, and is not available to the CPIC because it is local (may need some clarification on this). From what I understand, they will also show up if you are checked at the border, as they are (obviously) attached to your identity. (This is where I'm a little unsure, as I don't understand how the CPIC can't see your local police records, but US customs can.) Because theft under is considered a crime of moral turpitude, you may be turned away at the border. If that happens, you need as US waiver to enter the US FOREVER, as you now have an FBI file- and that can never ever go away.

Thank God we live in Canada, though- because we are fortunate enough to be able to apply to have our arrest records/police records/finger prints destroyed. I don't think they are actually "destroyed", but sealed (as someone mentioned, if everyone was approved and had their fingerprints and records destroyed, everyone would be a first time offender- that way if you re-offend, the previous charges will show up). I'm not sure how long you must wait to apply to have them destroyed, but I do know that it takes approximately 8 months for everything to go through if you are approved. Apparently each province has their own way of doing things, though, and I have heard some horror stories about everyone "passing the buck" and it never gets done. Good luck!

[c___l]

Hi xsosorry,

THANKS SO MUCH for your clarification, you have no idea.. It helped me understand things a lot better. I just wanted to ask though, what is a level 1 criminal check? I need one for my clinical placement this summer, and it's called a "vulnerable sector screening". Do you think this is anything higher than a level 1 criminal check?

Also, I thought that the US customs uses the CPIC to check for any criminal records. Same with you, I'm wondering why the US border can see the record but the CPIC won't be able to.

So discharges can be purged but withdrawn charges can't?

[c___l]

Oh one more thing, how do we get our arrest/police records destroyed? I only know of the finger print one. THANKS!

[xsosorry]

Hi again c___l,

I'm pretty sure I could have a degree in criminal law after all the research I've done, lol. Like I mentioned I am in a similar case as you, but no disposition has been made for my case yet. I have a lot at stake and I can't believe I made such a dumb decision. I'm hoping for a similar outcome to your situation. Also, before I get into this anymore, I wanted to retract a comment I made on my previous answer- arrest records/police files/fingerprints ARE available to the CPIC, as they are reported to the RCMP by your local police station, but the CPIC records can definitely be destroyed, where the local records may not be (depends on the province). I'm sorry about that! I did some more research and got some clarification on that.

Basically there are 4 levels of a criminal record check, and a vulnerable sector screening. Level 1 only includes convictions for which no pardon has been granted. Level 2 includes level 1, plus any outstanding charges (i.e. if you are arrested again and no disposition has been made). Level 3 includes level 2, plus any discharges that have NOT been removed (therefore, if you are absolutely or conditionally discharged, it WILL be disclosed if the 1 or 3 year time has not passed- and even then, it may not have been removed, as I hear the RCMP/CPIC is pretty slow at dealing with the purging of records). This level apparently also includes all charges regardless of disposition. I'm not sure how this could be, as a withdrawn charge is not the same as a discharge (a discharge is an admission of guilt, but no conviction is made, where a withdrawn charge is not an admission of guilt), an acquittal is a "not guilty" verdict, etc, so that doesn't really make sense to me. Level 4 includes level 3, plus any local police records, arrest records and court records.

This is where it gets kind of tricky. Level 4 basically includes ANY contact with the police you have had. Let's say you had a huge party and your neighbour made a complaint about it and the police came to your door- it will be there, because they would have had to make an incident report. To make it more complicated, it will show up as "May or may not exist", regardless of whether it was something as harmless as a party or a serious offense.

Furthermore, each province has their own policies on the destruction of local police files. Some provinces will NOT destroy their police files at the local level, but they will be destroyed (granted that the RCMP approves the request) at the CPIC level (Again, I need some more information about this, especially since it varies province to province. I believe that some provinces do destroy their local files, but I am not 100% certain). In regards to crossing the border, it is unclear exactly what databases the US customs has access to. From what I understand, this varies from crossing point to crossing point. Some provinces DO, in fact, share their local police records (from what I've read and understood- Ontario being one of them). I suppose this is where the US customs could see your arrest records, and the CPIC could not (if they had been destroyed).

To get your files destroyed, go to the RCMP website and fill out the request form and submit it to the police station you dealt with. Send with it a copy of your court papers stating that your charges were withdrawn, and a reference letter. This will help to ensure that your request is not denied. I would also suggest contacting that particular police station to find out what their policy is one local file destruction!

And lastly but not least, the vulnerable section check will include a level 4 check, plus any convictions of a sexual or violent nature, even if they HAVE received a pardon. When I contacted the RCMP myself, he said that a vulnerable sector check only includes sexual/violent convictions. As well, if your birth date and gender matches anyone who has been convicted of a sexual or violent offense, you have to go get fingerprinted- so not to worry. If that happens, they are just confirming your identity, but from my understand, that could disclose any withdrawn charges/police files that have not been destroyed.

One last thing- your fingerprints destruction is the same as your file destruction! Your file will contain your fingerprints, photos, physical characteristics, arrest records, police reports etc.

[xsosorry]

Holy crap that is a novel. Sorry about that!

[c___l]

No, you're actually a GREAT help! Better to know more than to not know at all. Thanks so much for taking the time to reply!

So a vulnerable sector screening would be level 4, meaning they can see your arrest records and any encounters with the police. Does that mean that my check will come out as "positive"? I'm just not sure if I'll get a positive check even if my charges have been withdrawn.. or only convictions would show up as positive.

Also, to submit my file destruction form, I wasn't at a police station when my arrest happened. Does this mean I should go to my local police station?

Thank you so much!

[xsosorry]

Hi again c___l,

Even if your charges were withdrawn, the arrest records/police records/finerprints will show up on a level 4 check unless you have your file destroyed. (However, as I mentioned I myself have not gone through the process yet. The crown does not even have my case yet, so anything I've told you is just from research)

Did you sign the papers stating that you understood what your charge was? If you had a court date assigned to you, this is the piece of paper with that date as well as your identification (fingerprinting) date. On that paper, the arresting officer should have written what district he/she was from.

[c___l]

Yes, I received a piece of paper stating my fingerprint and court date on it, so I should go to the location of the police officer's district? (that was the location I had to go to get my fingerprints done).

I'm just wondering now if the arrest records that will show up on the vulnerable sector screening would make it become a positive check and would deny my entry for clinical placement this summer, because I was never "convicted".

[xsosorry]

Hi again c___l,

I'm really not sure when it comes to the vulnerable sector screening. From what I have read, yes, and involvement with the police (arrest records, fingerprinting etc.) will show up on a vulnerable sector screening. However, when I called the RCMP myself, they said the only thing that will show up on a vulnerable sector screening is any convictions of a sexual or violent nature, regardless of whether they have received a pardon.

I have a question for you, actually! You mentioned in your original post that you were travelling to Hawaii... were you able to travel without any troubles? I am really nervous for the outcome of my case, as I travel to the states a lot for both of my jobs, am applying for med school in the states in a few years, etc. as well as travelling overseas this summer to volunteer.

[c___l]

Hi xsosorry,

When your screening shows that you've had fingerprints done, and been with an encounter with the police, did the RCMP tell you whether that's allowed in a vulnerable sector screening?. as in, do people need to be clear and free of even police encounters and fingerprints to pass the screening?

When I travelled to Hawaii, it was only 2 days after my court date. I was so nervous that the withdrawal of my charge wouldn't show up, because it wouldn't have had time to process to the US customs. However, they didn't ask my any questions, or mention anything about my arrest. I assume this is because my entire record (with the police, etc) hasn't been processed to them yet. If anything, my diversion officer said that they'll just ask me questions, but they'll generally still let you through.

I would suggest you get your file destructed before you apply or go overseas. For me, they told me I had to wait 5 months to get my fingerprint destroyed, I'm not sure if that meant the whole file or just the fingerprints. However, it does take a really long time for people to process the application, so it may take up to months!

Hope this helps, and thanks for your info!

[xsosorry]

Hi again c___l,

Thanks for your response! Sorry I can't be of more help with the vulnerable sector screening. I've been researching a bit more, and I found the vulnerable sector screening form for the York Police Service. You basically fill out all your particulars (name, address, gender, but nothing pertaining to any criminal charges). At the bottom, there are 2 boxes that the police can check- one states "This is to certify that no notable criminal records were found in the national repository for criminal records in Canada. This information can only be confirmed by fingerprints. This also confirms that no pertinent negative information has been found." The other box states "This is to certify that the above person does appear in the national repository for criminal records in Canada and/or the local records of York regional police".

Granted, each police station in each province has their own way of doing things. Regardless, this seems very misleading to me. If your charges were withdrawn, stayed, dismissed, or discharged, you were NOT convicted and therefore there is no criminal record. In my opinion, a theft under 5000 charge is not pertinent to working with the vulnerable sector. However, until your file is destroyed, you will still have police records. This is all very confusing to me lol.

c___l, have you had your police records destroyed? If so, how long did it take for everything to be completed? Was it a fairly straightforward process?

Also, I wanted to ask you some specifics about your case, if you don't mind. How old were you when you were charged? What was the monetary value? (I'm sorry if I'm being nosy, I'm just really nervous about my case and I'm trying to gather as much info as possible. It seems as though everyone here who has been charged with theft under was discharged, went through a diversion or had their charges withdrawn, but I'd like to know how I can best present my case with my lawyer so I can have my charges withdrawn/diverted)

[c___l]

I actually went to get an application for the vulnerable sector screening. It says that any withdrawn charges will also show up in the check, so I feel pretty screwed right now (since it specifically says "including theft ... "). I don't know if my clinical placement will now hire me for the summer. I'm wondering if anybody else had done a VSS before with a charge like this so I could see how it turned out. I'm really worried.

When I was charged, I was 18 years old, and the value was approximately 100 dollars. I didn't tell my parents anything (and still didn't to this day, which is why I'm so worried because the file can't be completely destroyed - so if I ever cross to the US border, the file will always be there apparently). When you are granted a diversion and you complete it as asked, you will definitely get charges withdrawn!

[JudyKayTee]

Again - a diversion does NOT mean the charge and/or disposition is NOT visible to certain Government agencies. Your file is not, so to speak, taken into the backyard and burned. It is still there, on the computers, visible to certain eyes.

[xsosorry]

Hi c___l,

What Judy says is true, the file is not actually "destroyed", but ALL records are sealed. After speaking with Pardons Canada and reading a bit on their site, it appears as though your finger prints and photographs are destroyed (removed), and everything else is sealed. If you reoffend, the files are still visible. I also spoke to a police officer who said the same thing (which was no easy task- everyone I talked to, aside from the one who was nice told me my charges will most likely be stayed, was EXTREMELY rude).

c___l, I would say your best bet would be to gather all of your court documents for your diversion process (eg. That you completed community service, paid the fines etc.) to show that you're a good person who made a mistake. Explain to them what happened (you were only 18, etc.) The thing that REALLY SUCKS and I do not feel is fair is that because theft under 5000 is a crime of moral turpitude, it will really affect admission into any program that puts you in a position of trust. I understand that it is a crime of dishonesty, but really, everyone makes mistakes (hell, I know people who are IN med school who used to shoplift regularly, they just didn't get caught) and it sucks that this will affect us for what seems like forever. (side note- assault, even if it was with a weapon, as long as there was no intent to kill, is NOT considered a crime of moral turpitude. Neither is DUI, meaning border crossing for both of those convictions is legal. Like I said, everyone makes mistakes, but I feel that putting the lives of people in danger is a little more serious than a crime of dishonesty. Apparently shoplifting makes us the worst people on the face of the planet. Of course I was wrong and feel terrible about it, but I would never DREAM of harming a human being by taking their personal belongings or physically hurting them)

It's been a few years since your disposition, so I would apply for a file destruction with Pardons Canada. To have it expedited (which will still take form 6-12 months) is $570. It may happen in time for you to apply for your course.

Don't you wish you could turn back time? I can't sleep, I'm depressed, I cry (more like sob) all the time. This sucks. It's going to take me a long time not to hate myself- the only thing that's keeping me sane is that A LOT of people who have shoplifted and are good people, they just didn't get caught (which is no excuse, I know, but it's really hard to forgive myself. Ughh)

[JudyKayTee]

I'm ex-US Customs. I know how this works.

I a little concerned about your thinking concerning theft. You say, "but I would never DREAM of harming a human being by taking their personal [your use of bold] belongings... " When you shoplift you do steal from people - everyone else pays a higher price to make up for the profit lost on the items you sold and somebody, somewhere owns the store where you shoplifted.

As far as people in Med School who shoplifted and didn't get caught, that's the odds you face when you steal. Is your argument that you are bad but they are worse?

And I don't know that good people shoplift.

I've been in the legal system a long time. I've seen shoplifting as a sport for a long time. It hurts the economy, it hurts the owners, it leaves people with criminal records which they then don't understand.

I realize you are sorry and wish it had never happened - but I don't understand the logic to your thinking. "We" have plenty of shoplifters in the US. "We" don't need any more.

[c___l]

It's actually only been around 8-9 months or so, so I'm not quite sure if that's enough time yet. What will Pardons Canada do with your record? Will they completely expunge it or is there something else they do? I've also read testimonies from Pardons Canada a while ago but I didn't really know whether to trust it or not. If it's file destruction (as in only fingerprints/photos can be destroyed), then I can do it through the RCMP for free right?

Yes, I do agree that I wish time could go back, but I'm afraid if I've never made this mistake, I wouldn't realize how terrible shoplifting is. I truly understand now, and all the effects it has. I do feel terrible, and hope to find a way to remove this out of my life, so my friends and family won't have to be affected and have to worry either!

By the way, xsosorry, have you spoken to any police officer/RCMP about the vulnerable sector screening specifically?

[xsosorry]

Hi again c___l,

Once a file is destroyed it is completely sealed off from anyone and everyone, unless you reoffend.

I went for fingerprinting yesterday and the lady at the desk was very helpful. As my arresting police station is not giving me an answers (the lady at the desk told me that the particular police station I am dealing with does not like to help people out, which was accompanied with an eye roll). You can bypass having to submit your request for file destruction to your police service by applying to the chief at your public safety building (the place you go for fingerprinting), who will them submit it to the RCMP. Because your charges were withdrawn, you have no waiting period. In fact, she told me that if charges were withdrawn, you could just fill out an application there and they will destroy the files. Keep in mind though that this is Manitoba, it may be different in Ontario, but it seems like the police in Ontario are much more willing to go through with a file destruction by the amount of information I've been able to find on it.

You are right, c____l. This has already made me a better person, and realized how much shoplifting harms society. I am ashamed to say how ignorant I was, especially in not realizing that people get fired/hours cut due to loss. I guess I just didn't realize the severity, as it was from a "chain store". I definitely do now, but I'm angry with myself that it had to come to this for me to realize though. Good luck with your file destruction! Let me know how things work out for you.