[chrisadams]

Why bow heads toward kabba...

[tickle]

Kabba is a holy site in the islamic religion. Why would it be an empty ritual?

[hauntinghelper]

What that question really boils down to then is whether the teachings of Islam are true or not. If Islam really is the ONE true religion to God, then no, I'm sure it is not an empty ritual. However, if it really is not the truth... it would be empty... it would be something that carries no real meaning.

[Fr_Chuck]

Ritual is empty if you don't have faith in the religious teachings you are following.

If it is bowing to the west, making a cross in another faith, or raising your hands in prayer in another.

Rituals in and to theirself mean little by their own actions, it is the meaning it helps gives those that use it to worship

[hauntinghelper]

Good call, but of course that also depends on the person's view of "meaning". Yes, whether the religion is true or not, to the worshiper this act of ritual may be something to fuel their faith or take comfort in. In this one could say it does have meaning, whether it is a reality or not. I guess the meaning I took from it was whether it really matters or not. In that case, of course, the only thing that matters is reality. It makes a nice discussion though.

[Alty]

If you believe the teachings of your religions, then nothing is meaningless in those teachings.

So, why are you questioning the bowing of your head towards kabba? Are you questioning your entire religion, and it's beliefs?

[Fr_Chuck]

Or , are you questing the actions of another. I make the sign of the cross when I pray, I often get ridiculed for it, for me, that is their issue not mine

[hauntinghelper]

On a personal note... may I ask why you do that? What exactly is that doing for you? I've never really discussed this before with someone who does it.

[Alty]

Or , are you questing the actions of another. I make the sign of the cross when I pray, I often get ridiculed for it, for me, that is their issue not mine

Chuck, you know me well, and you know my beliefs. Something funny, I do pray, even though I'm a Deist. Also, I always make the sign of the cross before and after I pray. I pray every night before I go to bed. I can't sleep if I don't. Of course the term Deist is a loose term. It's just the closest description to what I believe.

I was born Lutheran (Lutherans don't do the sign of the cross), raised Lutheran, went to Catholic school (never became Catholic), and became a Deist, but I still pray and I still make the sign of the cross, which is not a ritual in any of the two actual religions I was or am a part of.

Go figure. :rolleyes:

[Fr_Chuck]

Actually some Lutherans do cross, they were all suppose to when Lutherans first started. They lost most of their tradition over the years. If you read their cathechism on prayers it says to make the sign of the cross ( at least the old one from the 60s does)

Many of the Anglican groups do ( but not as much as they used to either) Orthodox do but they cross the opposite direction than the Catholics do.
Even many Catholics don't do it as much as others.

I started doing it a lot more than I used to a few years ago, It was a example for my son, he felt strange praying in McDonalds or other places out, So I wanted to show him to be proud. It does not make my prayer any better or worst, any more "heard"

[hauntinghelper]

Ah, that's a great reason though. I was just curious, because of course there are many out there that do it simply to do it... thinking it's not praying right without crossing. Personally I'm a bare bones type of guy and if something doesn't really need to be there, I try to make sure it's not. But really you could say the same thing about praying with your eyes closed and folding your hands... which of course I do, especially when praying with my daughter before bed. Haha, sometimes I picture God looking down on us wondering why on earth we do what we do sometimes.