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talaniman · May 21, 2011, 06:56 PM

Compulsory? Like mandatory, has no legal or criminal consequences does it?

And who said freedom was FREE?

paraclete · May 21, 2011, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Compulsary? Like mandatory, has no legal or criminal consequences does it?

And who said freedom was FREE?

Yes there are a lot of misconceptions about freedom. We are not free to do whatever we want to. Being part of a society comes with obligations. No one gets sent to jail for not voting, but they do get asked to provide an explanation and can be fined. It's like the census, same deal. What it comes down to is you are either part of the society or you are not. You want to be free go live in the forest and subsist

tomder55 · May 22, 2011, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Compulsary? Like mandatory, has no legal or criminal consequences does it?

The Aussies get fined if they don't vote . So there are consequences.

TUT317 · May 22, 2011, 02:08 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about being a free society. Deluded but free. Compulsary is by force and by force is not free.

Hi Tom.
As far as civil rights and civic duty are concerned are concerned I though one implies the other-but anyway.

As far as your last three sentences are concerned I am wondering how it is possible to be free ( perhaps deluded) and not free at the same time. Or, are you saying we are not fee when it comes to particular instances?

Tut

tomder55 · May 22, 2011, 03:09 AM

I was just being polite. Anyway free is not the operative word... liberty would be a better word.
But if you think donkey voting is an expression of the public will then knock yourselves out. Obviously your politicians benefit from mandatory suffrage. They don't have to bother to court the electorate.

Just do me a favor .Stop using the qualifier "right" to vote. It's just another thing that government has decided you MUST do.

TUT317 · May 22, 2011, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

I was just being polite. Anyway free is not the operative word ...liberty would be a better word.
But if you think donkey voting is an expression of the public will then knock yourselves out. Obviously your politicians benefit from mandatory sufferage. They don't have to bother to court the electorate.

Just do me a favor .Stop using the qualifier "right" to vote. It's just another thing that government has decided you MUST do.

Hi Tom,

I promise I will not use the words "right to vote again".

Ok, so we seem to be in agreement that being forced to vote is characteristic of a tyranny. You agree that this particular instance of 'tyranny' does not make our country a tyranny overall?

If we want to talk about liberty in a general way then we need to distinguish between positive and negative liberty. Being forced to vote detracts from your negative liberty. On this basis are you opposed to it on ideological grounds rather than actual outcomes?

Tut

paraclete · May 22, 2011, 06:21 AM

Tom we get less donkey voting here than you do in the US. I hear the donkey vote in the US is more than 50% which accounts for your presidential selection

talaniman · May 22, 2011, 07:34 AM

I live in America, and the cornerstone of freedom is a free election. The consequence of not voting is not fines or any recriminations, but no vote, no beeyatch.

Don't complain who the other guy votes for or why, just cast your vote, and be counted. That's the way it works, and that's why you have so many rookie tea party reps in the house now. The ones who showed up voted them in.

If they stay in we will see next year! That's how it works. Like EVERYTHING in America, donkeys, or elephants, its all about the money. No matter what you call the system, you get a say in it every two years. But you have to listen to the propaganda in between. Choice is freedom, and you shouldn't give that choice away lightly.

All due respect to my Australian, and Canadian friends, glad your system works for you, there are obviously different ways that work, but I think here in America, we are in transition, and recovery, and no doubt we still find a way forward, despite the diverse and numerous opinions as to the how. That's what makes us great, we all can holler and cavort, but we will get to where we are going. That's comes with being free, hollering and expressing, not only what we like, but what we don't like. That's freedom.

excon · May 22, 2011, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

I live in America, and the cornerstone of freedom is a free election....

Thats what makes us great, we all can holler and cavort, but we will get to where we are going. Thats comes with being free, hollering and expressing, not only what we like, but what we don't like. Thats freedom.

Hello tal:

**Greenie**

excon

paraclete · May 22, 2011, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello tal:

**Greenie**

excon

Now that's not nice he is only allowed to be either red or blue, that's the american expression of democracy

tomder55 · May 23, 2011, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Tom we get less donkey voting here than you do in the US. I hear the donkey vote in the US is more than 50% which accounts for your presidential selection

OK then... jackass votes then . The Dems defame donkeys.

talaniman · May 23, 2011, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by paraclete

Now that's not nice he is only allowed to be either red or blue, that's the American expression of democracy

Actually, after and election we all should be purple, but some people get entrenched so into themselves they don't want want to change. We have deep seated feelings in America, and sometimes all we can see is the next election, and not the work that needs to be done.

Sort of comes with a diverse, GROWING society. Some are more diverse than others, and some are less flexible than most, but still we move slowly forward.

paraclete · May 23, 2011, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by talaniman

Actually, after and election we all should be purple, but some people get entrenched so into themselves they don't want want to change. We have deep seated feelings in America, and sometimes all we can see is the next election, and not the work that needs to be done.

Sort of comes with a diverse, GROWING society. Some are more diverse than others, and some are less flexible than most, but still we move slowly forward.

I think it comes from having elections too often, you never get out of election mode and get the opportunity to be bipartisan. In a modern society with professional politicians you can afford to have your representatives elected less often particularly as many serve more than one term. Now if you held house and senate elections concurrent with presidential elections it would make the whole process much more interesting. Less lame ducks and an electorate which has to be much more careful with its selection.

On reflection I think we both have a system designed to limit government as much as possible

tomder55 · May 23, 2011, 06:48 AM

I on the other hand encourage term limits . One of the biggest scourges of our system is the professional political class.

talaniman · May 23, 2011, 07:30 AM

I would agree, but I would be wary of those with idealogical solutions to complex problems. Like holding the debt ceiling hostage to budget cuts without reforming corporate welfare. This while totally ignore jobs! Unacceptable. Making a debt the excuse to shrink government, and grow corporations, even more is not what a free society is about. That's slavery in my view.

tomder55 · May 23, 2011, 07:45 AM

and grow corporations, even more

Very interesting . That was considered the ideal in our parent's generation . One established phone company ;3 established airlines;a handful of defense contractors ;3 major auto makers ,3 major news networks , only a couple of energy companies and gas companies in the market ,utilities completely owned by the local government... all powerful... all working in conjunction and in coordination with the government.
There is more choice than ever and yet the complaint is that it isn't the way it was.

talaniman · May 23, 2011, 08:07 AM

Those are the winds of change. Adjustments must be made, in thought, and action. All CAN benefit, not just a privileged few. The world is smaller since my parents had one TV, and 4 network channels. They went to the moon, we are going to Mars.

paraclete · May 30, 2011, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by talaniman

we are going to Mars.

What will you do when you get there? It will not be the featured television event the moon was, live pictures take a long time to come and interview is not practical, reality TV will have to give over to what happened yesterday.

People think Mars is some place you can live, reality is you can't, there is no life there for a reason

talaniman · May 30, 2011, 08:23 PM

Just like the moon, half the fun is just going, planting a flag, and coming back. And saying we did it!

paraclete · May 30, 2011, 08:41 PM

So the Russians take possession of the North Pole you take possession of the Moon and Mars, people love taking possession of useless inhospitable places. Will everyone race China for the prize and what is the prize, to see who can build the biggest space ship? The last time we got the shuttle, we are not very imaginative are we?

Now if by going we solved some problem that needed to be solved like cold fusion there would be some point to it, but right now we need to put our resources into fixing up the space ship we have not building new ones