[classyT]

Headstrong,

I did a whole thread on predestination. I'm NOT going to say that I completely understand it any more than I completely understand the trinity. I'm not even sure that I have the concept correct. I always thought we were predestinated. Does this surprise you? Now, I don't know. BUT THIS I do know. IF and that is a big IF, we are predestinated to become saved, it isn't the gospel and it isn't something you go around preaching to the unbelieving world. AND... somehow, someway, MAN is ultimately responsible for what they do with the Lord Jesus Christ. It isn't the gospel. It isn't a something that Paul preached or wrote about to the unbelieving world. Otherwise the Apostle Paul's life would have been a waste and it wasn't.

In revelation it states that after the great white throne judgement, a whole list of different types of people are thrown into the lake of fire... one of group is simply the UNbelieving. Man is without excuse.

[Wondergirl]

Wondergirl:


I see the Bible saying that it's not about our accepting or rejecting. Don't you see that ?

God does the accepting or rejecting. You have it reversed, as do many who believe in so called human free will, particularly in reference to salvation.

You quoted one passage to prove my point --
"... that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:13.

The Father creates, the Son redeems, and the Spirit sanctifies. I agree with Luther's definition of Sanctification, "I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life."

God comes to us where we are:
1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."
Ephesians 2:1 "You were dead in your transgressions and sins."
Romans 8:7 "The sinful mind is hostile to God."
Ephesians 2:8,9 "By grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."
1 Corinthians 12:3 "No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit."

Faith occurs through the Word -- not a mental acceptance of the word of God, but rather a basic reorientation of the heart and a redirection of life. (Faith is a verb.) Eph. 2:8,9 tells us that faith is a gift of God. Man's self has no capacity to do anything to actively will itself into a saving relationship with God; man is estranged from God and cannot overcome that by his own efforts. God’s grace comes first without any effort by man and includes a redirection of man’s capacity to will and work.

Luther: "Those who insist upon decision without ascribing the credit to God distort the meaning of faith by making it a work. On the other hand, those who stress the activity of God without reference to human decision, make automations and objects out of men."

[TUT317]

Headstrong,

I did a whole thread on predestination. I'm NOT going to say that i completely understand it any more than I completely understand the trinity. I'm not even sure that I have the concept correct. I always thought we were predestinated. does this suprise you? Now, I don't know. BUT THIS i do know. IF and that is a big IF, we are predestinated to become saved, it isn't the gospel and it isn't something you go around preaching to the unbelieving world. AND.....somehow, someway, MAN is ultimately responsible for what they do with the Lord Jesus Christ. It isn't the gospel. It isn't a something that Paul preached or wrote about to the unbelieving world. Otherwise the Apostle Paul's life would have been a waste and it wasn't.

In revelation it states that after the great white throne judgement, a whole list of different types of people are thrown into the lake of fire...one of group is simply the UNbelieving. Man is without excuse.

Hi Tess,

Ultimately I think you are right. I would argue that predestination is incompatible with free will. Perhaps this might help...

Determinism: There is a shark in the water.

Fatalism: The shark is going to eat me.

Free will: I am going swimming.

Predestination: I am going swimming and a shark will eat me.


Regards

Tut

[dwashbur]

Hi Tess,

Ultimately I think you are right. I would argue that predestination is incompatible with free will. Perhaps this might help.......

Determinism: There is a shark in the water.

Fatalism: The shark is going to eat me.

Free will: I am going swimming.

Predestination: I am going swimming and a shark will eat me.


Regards

Tut

As I've said before, I don't necessarily agree with the idea of "free will" as usually defined. I prefer to speak of "responsibility." God holds us responsible for the choices we make, even though he knows what those choices are going to be. The only predestination I see Paul speaking of is God predestining us to be conformed to the image of Jesus. Other places he speaks of God's foreknowledge of who will receive him, but those who do and those who don't are still responsible and answerable for their choices. Somewhere beyond the horizon in the mind of God, those two ideas coalesce into something that makes sense, but our finite minds can't grasp it because we're finite creatures trying to comprehend the infinite. It's an annoying limitation, but for the time being we're stuck with it.

[classyT]

Dave,

Paul goes even further than that. Yes he does say we are predestinated to be conformed but there are some verses in Ephesians that are interesting ( I know you already know... Mr. smartypants)

Eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Even if we are somehow predestinated like John Calvin believed, we are still responsible. So we agree... kinda, sort of. You just want to be stubborn about the whole predestinated thing. ( :) )

[classyT]

Hi Tess,

Ultimately I think you are right. I would argue that predestination is incompatible with free will. Perhaps this might help.......

Determinism: There is a shark in the water.

Fatalism: The shark is going to eat me.

Free will: I am going swimming.

Predestination: I am going swimming and a shark will eat me.


Regards

Tut

Tut,

You are an interesting person and your posts are smart and thought provoking. However, I read some stuff you wrote in a discussion thread on religion. You don't believe Jesus is the only way, or do I have that wrong? Just wondering.

[classyT]

WG,

Sorry. I need to work on my spelling and English. Ha ha.. thanks for giving me a greenie instead of a slap. That's what they need! A button to click that slaps the person posting. :D

[Wondergirl]

WG,

sorry. I need to work on my spelling and English. ha ha..thanks for giving me a greenie instead of a slap. That's what they need! a button to click that slaps the person posting. :D

I was going to PM you, but thought others might benefit from the spelling lesson. :D Those two words are very much like another pair that is misspelled/misused - "orientated" instead of the correct "orient." Another pair is "excepted" and "accepted."

I'll not define them, but give you the golden opportunity to look them up and see the differences. :) (Aren't you glad you know me?? )

[dwashbur]

Dave,

Paul goes even further than that. yes he does say we are predestinated to be conformed but there are some verses in Ephesians that are interesting ( i know you already know.....Mr. smartypants)

eph. 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:


Even if we are somehow predestinated like John Calvin believed, we are still responsible. so we agree....kinda, sorta. You just want to be stubborn about the whole predestinated thing. ( :) )

I find that verse fuzzy as to exactly what was "predestinated" :D But I don't have a problem with the idea that God chose who would be saved, and still holds us responsible for whether we receive Jesus. I don't try to reconcile them any more, I leave that to God.

[HeadStrongBoy]

dwashbur:

But I don't have a problem with the idea that God chose who would be saved, and still holds us responsible for whether we receive Jesus.

Please... define "receiving Jesus." I assume you mean to say it is different from "God having chosen who would be saved."

[TUT317]

Tut,

you are an interesting person and your posts are smart and thought provoking. However, I read some stuff you wrote in a discussion thread on religion. You don't believe Jesus is the only way, or do I have that wrong? Just wondering.

Hi Tess,

As the thread you are referring to was in the area of religion in general I took the opportunity to speculate. I will need to take some time to come up with a reasonable explanation. Seeing as you are interested in what I think ( although I am not sure why) I will developed a reasoned argument some time soon.

Regards

Tut

[dwashbur]

dwashbur:


Please...define "receiving Jesus." I assume you mean to say it is different from "God having chosen who would be saved."

Romans 10:9-13.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Wondergirl:

Now, with the help of the Holy Spirit, Sally can work/make an effort to change her life and to do good things instead of bad ones. This is Sanctification, living a sanctified life.

In Exodus 31:13 God defines sanctification differently. He says unequivocally that it is He that sanctifies us. He does not add "with your cooperation."

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting HeadStrongBoy:dwashbur:Please... define "receiving Jesus." I assume you mean to say it is different from "God having chosen who would be saved." Romans 10:9-13.

Thanks for that response, and I am aware of that passage. There are others, especially in the New Testament, that appear to say equally clearly that personal salvation is dependent upon some action of ours. Whether it be confessing, believing, or being baptized, etc.

And those passages also appear to contradict the concept of God's complete autonomy in the work of salvation as expressed by passages like Ephesians 1:4. However there is a way to harmonize all of them. Other than the man-made construct of separating salvation into components like "justification" and "sanctification."

[dwashbur]

Thanks for that response, and I am aware of that passage. There are others, especially in the New Testament, that appear to say equally clearly that personal salvation is dependent upon some action of ours. Whether it be confessing, believing, or being baptized, etc.

And those passages also appear to contradict the concept of God's complete autonomy in the work of salvation as expressed by passages like Ephesians 1:4. However there is a way to harmonize all of them. Other than the man-made construct of separating salvation into components like "justification" and "sanctification."

As I already said, I don't worry about the apparent contradiction. It makes sense to God, and that's good enough for me. However, you say:

"there is a way to harmonize all of them."

And that way is..

[HeadStrongBoy]

dwashbur:

"there is a way to harmonize all of them." And that way is..

I was hoping you'd ask. But really it's nothing entirely new that you haven't heard before. From my perspective the biggest obstacle to harmonizing is to realize that our faith is work, based on scripture of course. I repeat: 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, and others. That indicates all other Bible references to the faith of Abraham, for instance, must be interpreted to mean that the faith in question is something other than Abraham's own work. Since any work (faith) of our own cannot contribute to salvation (justification).

And in the case of Paul telling the jailer in Acts 16:31 to "Believe on the Lord..." the believing must mean that God Himself must first give the jailer the belief (a new heart). Then and only then could he believe in such away that is toward salvation.