[RickJ]

Quoting RickJ:
"So then how would you explain 1 Timothy 2?"

May I point out that you are making the classic error...

Yes, you may point out that it is your opinion that I have made a "classic error"... and you have done so.

We will just have to agree to disagree ;)

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting RickJ:
"It's why, also, we can say that we are Saved, are being Saved, and will be Saved."

Thanks for the offering of that posting. I've already rated it as helpful. If I may, I can add some additional light to this issue. And it's not because I'm so smart. But, God has been merciful and allowed me to LEARN many things about the gospel that I was confused about before.

Here goes. Fact is that the human personality consists of two parts, IN VERY SIMPLE BIBLICAL TERMS.
[1] The body. [2] The soul (or the spirit essence - which is NOT equivalent to "the breath of life.") "The breath of life" is also translated as "SPIRIT" in the Bible. To distinguish between the two (soul and breath) it's necessary to look at the original language AND the context. But I digress.

In reference to salvation... while we're alive in this world, and have become saved... IT IS ONLY THE SOUL (spirit essence) that has been renewed, or born again. Our bodies, sadly, REMAIN IN THEIR UNSAVED SINFUL CONDITION, until either we die, or the rapture happens to us. I hope that helps. If required I'm willing and able to give references that support my declaration.

[NeedKarma]

CLEARLY NOT ALL have been pre-destined to be saved.

Could you explain that a bit? It seems by that statement that god picks and choose who can be saved.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting NeedKarma:
Quoting HeadStrongBoy: CLEARLY NOT ALL have been pre-destined to be saved. Could you explain that a bit? It seems by that statement that god picks and choose who can be saved.

Absolutely ! Perceptive of you. But right now I'm working on my breakfast. If you'll be a little bit patient I'll get back ASAP.

[dwashbur]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"You are misunderstanding what has been written in the Bible, especially the Gospel."

Not at all. In fact [U]you're the one[/U ]who's choosing to interpret it incorrectly. And I can show you EXACTLY HOW. It's the word "ALL." You prefer to think that it is LITERALLY everyone who's ever lived. Not so. The word "all" MUST BE CONDITIONED by everything God says in the Bible. For example:
[1]"...the vessels of mercy which He had afore prepared unto glory." Romans 9:23
[2]"Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth. Romans 9:18
[3]"the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." Romans 9:22

Clearly NOT ALL have been prepared to be saved. Thus NOT ALL sins have been paid for. OR are you saying that God has indeed paid for all sins, BUT some of those He paid for are going to slip out of His hand ? If that is the case, what about John 6:39 ? "...that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing..."

The conclusion is that "all" in reference to salvation must mean "all that were chosen."

No, "all" means "all." It doesn't mean that some of those he paid for are "going to slip out of His hand," it means that even though the price has been paid and the gift of life has been offered, not all are going to accept it.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:29

Is there a kind of predestination taught in the Bible? Of course. God is omniscient. But is this predestination just arbitrary? No. It's based on the fact that God knows who is going to come to him and who isn't. Humans have a choice: accept or reject. God knows what the choice will be, but we are still free and responsible to make that choice. It's hard to reconcile in the mind, because God is truly sovereign and we are truly responsible for our choice to accept or reject. I don't pretend to understand it; that's why he's God and I'm not (you should drop to your knees and be thankful for that!). The two things reconcile in his mind, but I can't comprehend it because I'm finite.

But the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus died for everyone, past, present and future. But it's as if you only have ten cents to your name and live on the street, but somehow you win a multimillion dollar lottery. That money is yours, right? Wrong. It's not yours until you go to the lottery office and claim it. If you refuse, you don't get it. The money has legitimately been offered to you, and it's yours to claim, but you reject it. Salvation is the same way. Jesus died for everyone, including person X. But person X chooses either not to believe it or to ignore the consequences of not receiving it, and finishes his life without it. He's not saved. God has no choice of what to do with him after that, and He knew it was going to happen, but person X is still responsible for his choice to reject what was freely and legitimately offered.

[NeedKarma]

Absolutely ! Perceptive of you. But right now I'm working on my breakfast. If you'll be a little bit patient I'll get back ASAP.

No rush, it won't change my life. LOL!
I was just thinking "hey, if it's pre-destined what's the point in trying".

[Wondergirl]

it's as if you only have ten cents to your name and live on the street, but somehow you win a multimillion dollar lottery. That money is yours, right? Wrong. It's not yours until you go to the lottery office and claim it.

God does even better than that. He leaves the lottery office and looks for me out on the street and finds me and tells me that I've won the lottery.

That's when I have the opportunity to say I'm interested or not.

[classyT]

No rush, it won't change my life. LOL!
I was just thinking "hey, if it's pre-destined what's the point in trying".

NK,

EXACTLY! It isn't the gospel. It isn't what Paul preached to unbelievers AT ALL. Anyone can come... and everyone will be held accountable.

[NeedKarma]

That's a mighty long breakfast he's having. Hehe.

[RickJ]

NK,

EXACTLY! It isn't the gospel. It isn't what Paul preached to unbelievers AT ALL. Anyone can come...and everyone will be held accountable.

Amen, Sister!

[classyT]

Quoting classyT:
"he loves you...why is that such a hard thing for you to accept?"

I do accept it, but with qualifications. He continues to love the whole world by making the "sun to shine and the (benevolent) rain to fall on the just and on the unjust." And He offers the Bible (His message) to all. But not all will be saved, because not all sins have been paid for. So in a way you COULD say, for the sake of this discussion, that the offer of salvation to all is NOT ENTIRELY SINCERE.

Then God is a deceiver and when the books are open at the great white throne judgement the ones that rejected Christ have an excuse. It won't be their fault.

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting dwashbur:
"But is this predestination just arbitrary? No. It's based on the fact that God knows who is going to come to him and who isn't. Humans have a choice: accept or reject. God knows what the choice will be, but we are still free and responsible to make that choice. It's hard to reconcile in the mind, because God is truly sovereign and we are truly responsible for our choice to accept or reject."

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG. One of the main points of confusion is that the concept of personal responsibility for living a moral life has become somehow entangled with God's total and complete autonomy when it comes to determining who has and who will become saved. The distinction needs to be made, and it needs to be maintained that no matter how morally or imorally a person may choose to live, that choice has nothing to do with how or why God chose the individuals that He chose to be saved.

I know there's more to be said, but that's my big point for now. If you want to find scriptural support or refutation for that point, we can do that next.

[Wondergirl]

HSB, please, please, please use the quote feature. Then you won't have to copy, paste, and underline. Once you have used the quote feature to bring a poster's words onto your screen, you can then edit that quote by deleting the parts that you don't want to respond to.

[Wondergirl]

I know that the explanation you've offered is the one accepted by mainstrean christianity. But the fact remains that it's WRONG.

You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"HSB, please, please, please use the quote feature."

Call me computer illiterate. Call me excitable and impatient. But I did post a question about that, and the smart people who answered it were not able to enlighten me. The fact is I would. But I just haven't figured out how to do it. I apologize. Maybe you would be so kind as to teach me how. In very plain and simple step by step fashion...PLEASE !!!

[NeedKarma]

You and Mr. Camping have willy-nilly decided to go against hundreds of years of study and thought that have been put into this by some of the greatest minds that have ever existed?

WG, c'mon now, he only has 50 days to live!

[Wondergirl]

Maybe you would be so kind as to teach me how. In very plain and simple step by step fashion...PLEASE !!!

Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?

[Wondergirl]

WG, c'mon now, he only has 50 days to live!

My mother always said, "Better to be safe than sorry."

[HeadStrongBoy]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?"

I think I've finally found the "quote" button. Under the body of the original question is a "Manage" button. A sub-heading under Manage is "Quote and Answer." The problem remains that I don't know how to select the particular post that I wish to answer.

[Wondergirl]

Quoting Wondergirl:
"Do you see a Quote button at the bottom of your screen?"

I think i've finally found the "quote" button. Under the body of the original question is a "Manage" button. A sub-heading under Manage is "Quote and Answer." The problem remains that I don't know how to select the particular post that i wish to answer.

It should be post specific. Try it now. (Please don't make me leave the skin I'm on to fiddle around with the one you're on.)