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pgabell · Jan 24, 2011, 01:02 PM

Satan/Lucifer Worship Leader?
In my 63 years I have never heard a sermon or read a book that suggests that Satan was not a musical being, a worship leader, until now. We are studying Jim Richard's book, Satan Unmasked. In it he claims that Satan was not a worship leader and in fact had nothing to do with worship. All this based on Ezekiel 28:13. My commentaries and Hebrew dictionary do not agree with him. What do you think?

HeadStrongBoy · Jan 25, 2011, 10:50 AM

From your posting it seems that you've done some homework on the question of Satan. Good for you ! If you actually have studied this subject as carefully as it seems, then why haven't you noticed that the word LUCIFER does NOT exist in the original Hebrew scriptures ?

The studies I have been following indicate that Ezekiel 28:13 and 14 do NOT refer to Satan at all. Rather they point to the human race instead. Is that of any help to you ?

dwashbur · Jan 25, 2011, 12:50 PM

God forbid I should agree with Headstrongboy, but he's right about the Lucifer question. The word Lucifer comes from the Latin version of Isaiah 14, where the Hebrew means "light-bearer." The context makes it clear that it is talking about the king of Babylon, not some fallen angel, but it has been twisted for ages and has gotten entrenched in the popular consciousness. It's the same with the Ezekiel passage. It's talking about certain people/rulers, not a fallen angel or demon. The New Testament makes it clear that there is such a being, but we have no idea about his origins or anything else. I have read the book you are talking about, and he is reading so much into those passages I don't know where to begin. Suffice to say that nothing in the Bible ever suggests that he was/is/will be a worship leader or musician.

ReverendOmen · Feb 11, 2011, 05:38 PM

The Hebrew translation below shows many grievances with the authorized version of Ezekiel 28.

Against the Governor/Ruler of Tyre

28:1 And the word of YHWH (Yahweh) came to me saying, 'Son of man, say to the Governor [or Ruler] of Tyre,
"The Master YHWH (Yahweh) says this:
In your arrogance you say, 'I am El;
I sit throned like Elohim on the high seas.'
Though you are a man and not El,
you try to think the thoughts of Elohim.
3 What? Are you wiser than Daniel?
Has no secret been hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and intelligence
you have amassed great wealth for yourself,
you have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries.
5 By your skill in trading you have increased your riches,
and with your riches your arrogance has grown.
6 Therefore the Master YHWH (Yahweh) says this:
Because you try to think the thoughts of Elohim
7 I will bring foreigners against you,
the most barbarous of the nations.
They will draw sword against your fine wisdom,
they will defile your splendor,
8 they will throw you down into the pit to die
a death of disgrace on the high seas.
9 Will you still dare to say you are Elohim
before your assailant slays you?
No, you are a man and not El,
in the clutches of your assailants.
10 You will die strengthless,
at the hands of foreigners.
For I have spoken - it is the Master YHWH (Yahweh) who speaks."'

The fall of the King of Tyre

28:11-12 And the word of YHWH (Yahweh) came to me saying, 'Son of man, raise a dirge over the king of Tyre.
Say to him, "The Master YHWH (Yahweh) says this:
You were once a seal-print [exemplar] of perfection,
full of wisdom, perfect in beauty.
13 You came into luxury, a paradise from Elohim,
gems of every kind were your covering,
Sardin, topaz, diamond, chrysolite, onyx,
jasper, sapphire, carbuncle, emerald.
Your jingling beads were of gold,
and the spangles you wore were made for
you on the day of your birth.
14 I had provided you with a guardian cherub;
you were in the set-apart mountain of Elohim,
and you walked proudly among the stones that flashed with fire.
15 You were blameless in all your ways
from the day of your birth until iniquity came to light.
16 Your busy trading has filled you with lawlessness and sin,
so I thrust you down from the mountain of Elohim,
and the guardian cherub banished [or destroyed] you from
among the stones that flashed like fire.
17 Your heart has made you arrogant
because of your beauty.
You have corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
I have thrown you to the ground;
I have made you a spectacle for other kings.
18 So great was your sin in your wicked trading,
that you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I kindled a fire within you, to consume you.
I left you as ashes on the ground for all to see.
19 Of the nations, all who know you were aghast;
you became waste, gone forever."'

This would show that the man cast down is but a simple sinner of vanity, forsaking the lord's rules for his own earthly wealth. The problem with conflicting bible translations is that the bible is not meant to be taken as literal fact, but more as an ancient collection of morality tails. This, of course, relays to faith. Do you believe it's true, or do you believe its right. I could go on for days about the obvious contradictions of religion and bibles, but in the end, there is no argument for faith. Faith is the only reason you need to believe and accept fiction as reality. As for my opinion of translation; This portion of the bible speaks of a Prince who was God's follower and fell from the grace of god. It does not refer to the morning star(satan). Interestingly, in Hebrew, the morning star was referred to *** saw-tawn, which translates into opponent or adversary, but was transliterated instead of translated and became satan, thus considered a proper name and therefore capitalized.

dwashbur · Feb 11, 2011, 06:39 PM

"morality tails??

ReverendOmen · Feb 11, 2011, 06:58 PM

I'll take your sarcastic questioning of my use of tails instead of tales as a sign you were offended by my comment. I apologize, but it would be a staple of religion to leave each to his own. I would rather see the followers of faith spend their time acting upon their beliefs rather than criticize the grammar of others.

dwashbur · Feb 11, 2011, 08:17 PM

I wasn't offended by anything. I do stuff like that all the time, and it's all in fun. But thanks for the reddie; I haven't had one of those in a long time and was starting to think I was losing my edge.

Fr_Chuck · Feb 11, 2011, 08:39 PM

Owen, please don't use the comment feature to add a answer, it causes all sorts of issues, first it can not be rated, next as a moderator we either have to delete the entire answer since it can not be edited like a regular answer.

And of course the main reason, there is limited space in a comment to place an answer. You will note that almost no senior person or expect uses that feature.

Also I would also warn of using "reddies" or disagree very often, it is taken very offensive here by most and is not a good way for a new member with almost no post counts to come in and try to fit in.

dwashbur · Feb 12, 2011, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Owen, please don't use the comment feature to add a answer, it causes all sorts of issues, first it can not be rated, next as a moderator we either have to delete the entire answer since it can not be edited like a regular answer.

And of course the main reason, there is limited space in a comment to place an answer. you will note that almost no senior person or expect uses that feature.

Also I would also warn of using "reddies" or disagree very often, it is taken very offensive here by most and is not a good way for a new member with almost no post counts to come in and try to fit in.

Looks like Mopar might need the same explanation. Two reddies in one week. Now I KNOW I'm special!

Wondergirl · Feb 12, 2011, 12:56 PM

RevOwen's comment on dwashbur's post
I'll take your sarcastic questioning of my use of tails instead of tales as a sign you were offended by my comment. I apologize, but it would be a staple of religion to leave each to his own. I would rather see the followers of faith spend their time acting upon their beliefs rather than criticize the grammar of others.

He didn't criticize you, and FYI, it's spelling, not grammar.

Moparbyfar · Feb 12, 2011, 04:46 PM

Since you're somewhat of a newbie here dwashbur I'll recall for you something a Mod said a long time ago, "don't pay too much attention to the greenies or reddies." which is why it's kind of laughable that a Mod would say that it's very offensive after they've just said if you can't stand criticism don't post. The opportunity to give greenies or reddies is there for everyone, no matter how long you've been here. Can we stick to the OP, I was over spelling lessons when I left High School.

Wondergirl · Feb 12, 2011, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Since you're somewhat of a newbie here dwashbur

I've known dwashbur for a long time. He's quite an intelligent, well-educated, and even droll fellow. I hope you stick around long enough to appreciate his contributions as I do.

Dwashbur very neatly answered the OP's question about Lucifer being a worship leader. The OP has never returned to comment on any responses.

dwashbur · Feb 12, 2011, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

Since you're somewhat of a newbie here dwashbur I'll recall for you something a Mod said a long time ago, "don't pay too much attention to the greenies or reddies." which is why it's kind of laughable that a Mod would say that it's very offensive after they've just said if you can't stand criticism don't post. The opportunity to give greenies or reddies is there for everyone, no matter how long you've been here. Can we stick to the OP, I was over spelling lessons when I left High School.

Hmm, my profile shows 603 posts, yours shows 248. But I'm the noob. Whatever. If you saw what I wrote, you saw that I couldn't care less about the reddies. And I wasn't the one who nailed Owen about it, so I'm not sure why you think your quarrel is with me.

Moparbyfar · Feb 12, 2011, 09:13 PM

I'm not counting posts I'm looking at your join date and as you joined only last year, you're a relative newcomer.
I don't doubt that he is intelligent WG, as are so many in this forum, so being that he is so intelligent is that why he neatly answered the question, then kept coming back to add "spelling corrections" to peoples posts? I've stuck around here for a few years now WG with all sorts of members coming and going with their interesting posts and dwashbur is no exception which is why I 'm not going anywhere. *gets more popcorn*

Wondergirl · Feb 12, 2011, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by Moparbyfar

kept coming back to add "spelling corrections" to peoples posts?

You've got it backwards. I'M the one who is known for correcting regarding grammar and spelling (and some of those I've gently corrected have apparently valued that effort and have come to me for help with editing academic papers and stories headed toward publication). dwashbur isn't correcting as much as... well, I'll let him explain to you what he does so very well.