[Animus]

The human brain does whatever it can to avoid thinking about the end, what happens to your mind once you start becoming regularly exposed to it.

[Alty]

Interesting question, and not an easy one to answer, seeing as the majority of the population isn't regularly exposed to dead bodies.

For those in a profession where dead bodies are common place, I think that viewing the bodies in a scientific way, not allowing yourself to view them as a being that once lived, had a family, etc. etc. helps you detach yourself so that you can do the work you chose to do.

What happens to your mind? I don't think anyone can really answer that, because everyone reacts differently to every situation. The way you handle a dead body is probably very different to the way I would handle it, so there's no clear cut answer to that question.

[Wondergirl]

(Where's Sneezy* when you need him?? )

I disagree with Alty that one's mind detaches and doesn't consider them as having been a living breathing, human being. I would think it's important to always have that fact in the back of one's mind. I recently read that (some?) (many?) med school teachers begin their first-year gross anatomy course with a short biography of each cadaver and a speech about honoring and respecting the bodies that have come into the care of these medical students. At the end of the course, there may be a ceremony/memorial service that is quite reverent and provides a respectful closure to the students' experience and before burial.

From deathreference.com --

"Studies by sociologists have found that no experience has a more profound impact on medical school students than the first encounter with death, which typically occurs during the first-year course of gross anatomy. With its required dissection of human cadavers, the course seeks to impart a variety of explicit lessons, including the size, shape, and exact location of organs varies from one individual to another; organs vary in their "feel" and texture and are connected to other parts of the body in complex ways that textbook illustrations cannot effectively reproduce; and surgical instruments have specific purposes and must be handled properly to avoid injury to the patient or oneself. A less explicit, but no less important, result is overcoming the natural emotional repugnance at handling a cadaver."

*Sneezy is ISneezyFunny, a beloved AMHD member who is current studying to be a doctor.

[Alty]

I'll ask him WG.

I have had discussions with him about his schooling, and the fact that they are now working with cadavers. To him it's a learning experience, it's about the science, not about the human being on the table.

I'll skype him, get him to give us his take on it, just in case I misunderstood him.

From my personal point of view a dead body has never bothered me. It's the person that died that brought me grief, the body is just a shell, the soul or whatever made them who they were is long gone once the heart stops beating.

[Wondergirl]

I'll ask him WG.

I have had discussions with him about his schooling, and the fact that they are now working with cadavers. To him it's a learning experience, it's about the science, not about the human being on the table.

I'll skype him, get him to give us his take on it, just in case I misunderstood him.

From my personal point of view a dead body has never bothered me. It's the person that died that brought me grief, the body is just a shell, the soul or whatever made them who they were is long gone once the heart stops beating.

I agree there has to be detachment (just as I detach when I counsel -- otherwise, I'd be constantly sobbing), but I think knowing that these were real people and respecting that is important. An autopsy is even more so -- and for both it would be the opportunity to discover truth by dissecting someone. Sneezy had suggested that I read the non-fiction book Stiff; strangely enough, I had just finished it (I'm an M.E. at heart). Rather than joke around and toss organs across the room to make girls faint and put pop cans on cadavers' foreheads, I think I would rather honor my cadaver.

And I'm not talking about mourning. That's not my place. But it is my place to respect and honor the dead person in front of me even as I slice open his chest or saw off the top of his skull to remove his brain.

One article I had found earlier today mentioned that med students have the biggest problem when it's time to dissect faces, hands, and private parts.

[Alty]

I agree that respect is needed when dealing with a dead human being. My point was that med students, or others that regularly come into contact with dead bodies, don't view these bodies as the people they were. There has to be detachment, and the bodies are there for med students to learn. It's scientific.

I too would honor my cadaver, but I wouldn't weep over the loss of the person on my table, because I didn't know that person. I wouldn't want to go to a burial or other ceremony after I was done with the cadaver. That would be setting myself up for disaster, especially if it was my job to deal with cadavers on a daily basis.

There has to be detachment, and the best way to achieve that is to stick to the point of having that cadaver, which is to learn what a human body does, how it works, so that you can help the living.

I've sent Sneezy the link to this thread. Hopefully he'll either post to give us his point of view, or he'll message me and tell me what he thinks, which I'll post here. :)

[ISneezeFunny]

Hello everyone!

Thanks Alty, for sending me the link.

There are truths to both sides of the argument. We do hold a memorial ceremony for our cadavers and their family members, thanking them for donating their bodies to us so that we may one day, be able to help others. However, while in the cadaver lab or in the OR, we do treat it with respect, but at the same time, we have to detach ourselves a little. There are some students who get too attached to the family members of the cadavers, and become even friends with the family members, but I think it's a bit much. There are others who just simply can't do it because they imagine their loved ones on the table. I think there needs to be a bit of detachment in order to get things done (i.e. - if I were in the OR, and I was constantly thinking of the patient's life, loved ones, etc. I could make a mistake) but we all treat our cadavers with respect. We don't steal body parts or toss them around, but we don't sit there and read books to our cadavers or talk to them.

It seems almost childish to mention, but the only analogy I could truly think of is this. I apologize ahead of time for its crudeness. We see female patients at the hospital all the time. Time after time, male students are taught to be professional during breast and vaginal exams. Don't make jokes, don't get aroused (not sure if this lesson's very productive), and don't giggle like you're 5 years old if the female patient is attractive. Believe it or not, even the most beautiful female patient, when laying in the nude, doesn't phase me at all. I view them in such a way that I can't view them as a beautiful person, but another patient. It seems odd, but somehow, my mind adjusts that way. I guess I can't very well explain what my mind does, or why it does it, but I've had patients who I would consider absolutely stunning on a normal basis, affect me almost none when I see them in the exam room.

[excon]

The human brain does whatever it can to avoid thinking about the end, what happens to your mind once you start becoming regularly exposed to it.

Hello A:

If offers an opportunity to grasp our mortality. That, in turn, offers an opportunity to reorganize our priorities. We live our lives as though we have LOTS of time left. We don't.

excon

[Wondergirl]

Believe it or not, even the most beautiful female patient, when laying in the nude, doesn't phase me at all. I view them in such a way that I can't view them as a beautiful person, but another patient. It seems odd, but somehow, my mind adjusts that way. I guess I can't very well explain what my mind does, or why it does it, but I've had patients who I would consider absolutely stunning on a normal basis, affect me almost none when I see them in the exam room.

I hear you, Sneezy! I worked as a hospital physical therapy aide for two years. Part of my job was to welcome patients to the unit, chat a bit to put them at ease, set up the machines to be used (electric stimulators, jacuzzis, intermittent traction, the Hubbard tank), and get the patient onto a table or in a chair with pillows arranged as needed, tanks filled with water, machines put in place, etc. All wore hospital gowns, so I often caught flashes of usually covered body parts as I helped them move into position. We aides encouraged the patient to put on a second hospital gown like a bathrobe, so less flesh would be exposed and modesty preserved. After the first week, the sight of private flesh didn't bother me any longer. One xyz looks pretty much like another. The main concern was to do my job correctly with hopes that the patient would be comfortable and benefit from the treatment received. Respect was paramount.

[J_9]

Personally, I don't look at the face of the patient. It makes it easier for me to look at the body scientifically rather than as a person as a whole.

A certain degree of detachment is necessary in order to perform my job whether it be in the ER or in L&D. And, yes, I do have deaths in L&D, particularly babies. That is the hardest by far.

[Animus]

Are some people unable to deal with dead bodies? Is it like a phobia? Can be treated with either prolonged exposure or complete sensory immersion to ease the anxiety like a phobia?

[excon]

Hello again, A:

Some people?? In my view, that would be MOST people. Is it a phobia that can be treated?? You can't be serious.

excon

[Animus]

Hello again, A:

Some people??? In my view, that would be MOST people. Is it a phobia that can be treated??? You can't be serious.

excon

Do you mock all the questions you can't answer or just a few of them?

[excon]

Do you mock all the questions you can't answer or just a few of them?

Hello again, A:

I've never shied away from a serious question, but I DO mock the dumb ones. I'll try to be polite this time. Asking if being weirded out by dead bodies is treatable, is the stupidest question I've EVER been asked.

Is that warm and fuzzy enough for you?

excon

[Wondergirl]

Do you mock all the questions you can't answer or just a few of them?

Actually, excon is correct. Science is on his side. Flooding as a cure for phobias does not work, nor does prolonged exposure.

[Animus]

Actually, excon is correct. Science is on his side. Flooding as a cure for phobias does not work, nor does prolonged exposure.

Can you cite the source of your information? I learned differently in my psychology class.

[Animus]

Hello again, A:

the stupidest question I've EVER been asked.

excon

This is an ANSWER engine, if you can't answer the question, then I wasn't asking you.

[Wondergirl]

Can you cite the source of your information? I learned differently in my psychology class.

In my graduate psych program, we learned that too often, real psychological damage is caused by poor handling of the situation, and there are limited results.

How would a therapist "flood" someone out of his fear of dead bodies?

[Animus]

How would a therapist "flood" someone out of his fear of dead bodies?

I intended to relate the two methods of solving phobias to solving anxiety with witnessing a dead body. Seeing a dead body is not a phobia, but anxiety is a symptom of it. I am curious to see if regularly seeing a dead body will decrease the phobia-like symptoms the way that regularly touching a spider will work on an arachnophobia. Flooding is definitively out of the question. I wonder if the human brain will even allow that adaptation to occur knowing how important the fear of death is to survival.

[Wondergirl]

regularly seeing a dead body

How will you make THAT happen?