[animal advocate]

Metal training collars or "choke chains" should only be worn when the dog is being walked or being trained. They should never be left on a dog without supervision.

Training collars can be very dangerous if left on the dog. There are many horror stories about dogs trying to climb over fences and hanging themselves with the training collar. They can get it caught in their mouth. They can get their leg caught in it. They can get it caught on a protruding object and choke themselves to death. And I even had one client from my grooming shop tell me that her Irish Terrier used to like to grab her Border terrier's collar and drag him around. She came home one day and her Border Terrier had been choked to death by her other dog while playing with him.

So please, only use the choke chain for what it was made, for training. Take it off the rest of the time and keep your dog safe.

Molly

[labman]

This is very true. The dog guide school suggests to us puppy raisers keeping it on the leash, they use the term slip collars. When you come home, you remove the collar and put it up with the leash. On one of my many tours of their kennels, I noticed a pair of bolt cutters or 2 in every bay. They were right there hanging on the wall for quick access. I asked about them. They leave the slip collars on from the day a puppy returns until the day it leaves the school with its new partner. This includes the time the dogs run in the yard as a group. However, they are under the eye of a trained professional whose only job at the time is to make sure nothing happens to any of the dogs. None of the dogs ever were, but some of the trainers were injured untangling them.

Of course, any training tool can be misused. They should never be used on a puppy less than 4-6 months. Even older dogs shouldn't be given abusive corrections. When I was at at the school for a training seminar last fall, the presenter liked the technique of walking backwards when the dog pulled rather than a harsh jerk on the leash. With over 70 dogs in the class all under a year, there were many problem pullers. They responded well to the technique.

[Fr_Chuck]

I personally don't like them for any use myself.

Do you experts believe they are safe for training use ? Esp if the person walking or doing the training is not trained or does not know their proper use

[labman]

As I said, ''Of course, any training tool can be misused.'' We had a bad incident here about a year ago where somebody posted a link to to a site with one of Robert Kohler's disciples. Somebody asked for help with a 8 week old Great Dane that wouldn't walk on lead. The lady in the link was saying if the dog won't move, put a choke collar on it a drag it around. Near the end of the topic, she suggested limiting it to a half hour for puppies due to their short attention span. I thought it was a good example of why you shouldn't trust everything you Google up.

One of the great advantages of coming to AMHD for advice rather than doing a net search is that there are trained, experienced people here to warn of the dangerous.

Yes there are problems with people that don't know how to use a slip collar. There are problems with a lack of knowledge in many other areas too. On every subject there are widely varying opinions. Some of them are backed by large bodies of data and testing. 20 or even 40 years of experience means little if it consists of continuing the practices of the 50's and never comparing them to newer ideas. I was very impressed with the new puppy raising manual I was given a year and a half ago. Not only did it have significant new material different from the older one, it was loose leaf. Thus as the dog guide school tests and evaluates alternatives to their current practices, they can quickly pass the information on to their puppy raisers. In the mid 90's I was upset they were telling us things different from the ''right'' way we were first taught. Then, I decided I didn't want to be a part of a program that hadn't learned a thing in the last 20 years, and was still doing things the way they always had.

[Fr_Chuck]

Thanks, I have always just thought they looked so painful, I mean you would never think about putting one of those on your 4 year old child to make them stay beside you.

[labman]

Have you ever seen the prong collars many obedience instructors favor? I have heard they are very dangerous if not fit properly. I haven't been able to find the sort of evidence I like one way or another on that point.

You ought to see the stricken looks on people faces sometimes. Many people comment to me they wish their kids behaved as well as my puppies. Sometime I enthusiastically suggest I could make them if I put a leash and choke collar on them. Nobody has taken me up on it. So far I have resisted the urge to explain my puppies were better bred. If I suddenly disappear here and elsewhere, you will know what happened.

[badams007]

I work with what they call martingale collars. It is a normal web collar but as a section that will tighten up just an inch or 2. I really like them for training and because they are harder for dogs to duck out of (a famous setter trick)

-Beth

[labman]

The Martingales are the first choice of the service dog school my Holly belongs to. She has been enough of a problem, she is in a Gentle Leader.

They don't work quite right with Labs and their huge heads. Adjusted to go over the head, it won't tighten up enough.

The dog guide school give them to us, but still expect the dog to be used to the metal slip collar.

I think we will be seeing more and more of them.

[animal advocate]

I personally don't like them for any use myself.

do you experts believe they are safe for training use ? Esp if the person walking or doing the training is not trained or does not know thier proper use

Personally I don't like choke chains or prong collars at all and I don't think they are necessary. If the dog is that out of control you need to educate the owner first. Then figure out what is going on with the dog. Yes, they ARE a quick fix but not a very humane or compassionate one.

I have found that most dogs just need enough exercise to wear themselves out to be able to focus on what you want them to do. For instance, taking a puppy (or an adult dog) out of a crate and expecting him to behave immediately is asking way too much.

However, I noticed a post talking about them and I didn't see any warnings about their use, so that's why I wrote what I did. I too prefer the martingale collar that can be adjusted to tighten only to the size of the dogs neck but not any tighter. Also I like the newest in the gentle leaders which is a harness with a ring in the front to turn the dog, instead of using the dogs neck for turning which has caused some bad neck injuries.

So my personal preference is that I don't put anything around my dog's necks except a nylon or cloth collar for ID. I use a harness for walking and if I need to train them, I use a harness or a martingale collar.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Molly