[Armygirl80]

Whether or not you are ashamed to be an American, what it boils down to is supporting the troops that are in Iraq. I spent one year over there and I am DAMN PROUD to have gone over there. It's amazing how people are so loud about their opinions yet, were they ever willing to serve and protect our country?

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS CIVILIANS!!

Proud U.S. Army National Guard SOLDIER

[inthebox]

Thanks armygirl for your service to our country. It is the military that, when all is said and done, guarantee our right to free speech and differing opinions.

It amazes me that some people have opinions of this country based upon who is in the oval office. As a first generation American, I love and appreciate this country warts and all, whether it is Bush or Obama who is president.

[magprob]

Zeitgeist: Addendum

[xxariesxx]

Zeitgeist: Addendum

I saw this a few weeks ago. It was amazing

[frangipanis]

Wow, that was fascinating.

Zeitgeist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Zeitgeist Movement

While I agree with the overall 'emergent universe' picture presented, there were a few details in the second link that had me asking questions.

Here's one:
Our research has concluded that Scarcity is one of the most fundamental causes of aberrant human behavior, while also leading to complex forms of neurosis in other ways. A statistical look at drug addiction, crime and incarceration statistics, finds that poverty and unhealthy social conditions comprise the life experience of those who engage in such behavior.


Statistics show that drug addiction, divorce and domestic violence are found in all strata of society, while many of the poorest of poor don't engage in those same self/other abusive actions. Unless I'm missing something, the above claim doesn't seem to take this into account.

Another example:
education about life operations will inform people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests and population growth will naturally slow as people begin to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying capacity.

Cultural norms run deep as evidenced in China where the one child policy has resulted in more males being born simply because boys are favoured over girls. Re-educating society en masse to shift age-old beliefs has proven to be a mammoth, if not impossible, task.

Just a few thoughts. Fascinating ideas though.

[magprob]

They are on AM radio tonight. Coast to Coast AM with George Noory.

[xxariesxx]

wow, that was fascinating.

Zeitgeist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Zeitgeist Movement

While I agree with the overall 'emergent universe' picture presented, there were a few details in the second link that had me asking questions.

Here's one:
Our research has concluded that Scarcity is one of the most fundamental causes of aberrant human behavior, while also leading to complex forms of neurosis in other ways. A statistical look at drug addiction, crime and incarceration statistics, finds that poverty and unhealthy social conditions comprise the life experience of those who engage in such behavior.


Statistics show that drug addiction, divorce and domestic violence are found in all strata of society, while many of the poorest of poor don't engage in those same self/other abusive actions. Unless I'm missing something, the above claim doesn't seem to take this into account.

Another example:
education about life operations will inform people as to the ramifications of their reproductive interests and population growth will naturally slow as people begin to realize how they are related to the planet and its carrying capacity.

Cultural norms run deep as evidenced in China where the one child policy has resulted in more males being born simply because boys are favoured over girls. Re-educating society en masse to shift age-old beliefs has proven to be a mammoth, if not impossible, task.

Just a few thoughts. Fascinating ideas though.

They are talking about a future society in which we can overcome the restrictions of scarcity, not trying to find one that already exists. Yes (almost) all strata of society has those symptoms now, because no matter if it's money or bartering, or whatever form of monetary system one has, it's still because of scarcity. The point is overcoming that because of our technology and knowledge today to create a NEW society.

The point of education is exactly to shift beliefs and teach people about new ways of thinking. Society has also shown in time that we ADAPT. You can see how much westernized other countries have become, and who have abandoned old ways of thinking. Many Asian countries are now taking up Christianity, something which was never accepted before; and religion if anything has to be one of the biggest cultural issues there is. People only hold on to cultural norms as long as they believe in them; true and widespread education is what will eradicate those issues. It's not as if we are living in a civilized world now; the one-child system in China IS a cultural norm there, but do you really think it will be that way forever? As we interact with each other, we change, and adopt each other's culture.

We do have a lot to learn but it's not an impossible task, it will just take a lot of time, as people really do slowly become informed.

[frangipanis]

They are talking about a future society in which we can overcome the restrictions of scarcity, not trying to find one that already exists. Yes (almost) all strata of society has those symptoms now, because no matter if it's money or bartering, or whatever form of monetary system one has, it's still because of scarcity. The point is overcoming that because of our technology and knowledge today to create a NEW society.




The point of education is exactly to shift beliefs and teach people about new ways of thinking. Society has also shown in time that we ADAPT. You can see how much westernized other countries have become, and who have abandoned old ways of thinking. Many Asian countries are now taking up Christianity, something which was never accepted before; and religion if anything has to be one of the biggest cultural issues there is. People only hold on to cultural norms as long as they believe in them; true and widespread education is what will eradicate those issues. It's not as if we are living in a civilized world now; the one-child system in China IS a cultural norm there, but do you really think it will be that way forever? As we interact with each other, we change, and adopt each other's culture.

We do have a lot to learn but it's not an impossible task, it will just take a lot of time, as people really do slowly become informed.

I wasn't implying social change isn't possible, since blatantly it is. Social change can come about slowly or all of a sudden. However, just as the spread of democracy has not followed a predictable or even path, neither has the spread of Christianity, economic development, spread of education (knowledge) and technology. Nor is Christianity ever likely to be the dominant religion. I think it is naïve in the extreme to imagine any single vision of the world will be adopted uniformally across the globe through education and/or osmosis no matter how appealing I might find that ideology to be.

[xxariesxx]

I wasn't implying social change isn't possible, since blatantly it is. Social change can come about slowly or all of a sudden. However, just as the spread of democracy has not followed a predictable or even path, neither has the spread of Christianity, economic development, spread of education (knowledge) and technology. Nor is Christianity ever likely to be the dominant religion. I think it is naive in the extreme to imagine any single vision of the world will be adopted uniformally across the globe through education and/or osmosis no matter how appealing I might find that ideology to be.

If you examine how much more uniform the world has become in even the last 50 years, yes, it is completely possible that the entire world could become uniform. It is difficult to fathom at this point only because we have nothing to base our perceptions on but the past and our experiences. The world is smaller than ever and only getting smaller. The reason things have not changed along a predictable path is because it was always changed by a differing area and culture; but eventually all of the communication and sharing of ideas will be blended into all areas and we will all grow together and be able to work out ideas without outside influence, since it will not exist anymore.

[frangipanis]

While I agree there has been a greater exchange of ideas and an increased level of understanding of each other and what is happening around the world, there remains enormous diversity both within and across cultures.

Possibly because I tend to prefer the notion of a cultural mosaic rather than the American ideal of a melting pot, we seem to be talking at cross purposes, Aries. The American ideal is not abhorant to me at all, and I can live comfortably with those fundamental differences. However, if we were to continue to exchange our differences of opinion for too long, we would probably only give each other a headache :)

Our underlying ideals and hopes seem to be very similar as much of the philosophy of an 'emergent universe' embodied within the Zeitgeist Movement appeals to me. I was mainly questioning some of their research and underlying assumptions, and am wondering how they expect their vision will be realised.

[survivorboi]

I'm vietnamese, lol. I'm so proud I'm vietnamese to be honest. To me, the vietnamese are very determined and strong. I don't know if I'd offend anybody, but in the France and American's war against the vietnamese, I think we stood up pretty brave. That's what I think. We even stood up against the Chinese and Japanese too!

My country has been through a lot of wars, but I think that war makes people stronger, and more competitive. But no, I don't think war is the best idea though.

[gerryhoulihan]

I am irish. I would be totally pro-USA. As a world power, the USA has had a proud record, and has endured much undeserved abuse from other countries, and taken for granted by others (continental europe mainly). I was horrified by the events of 9/11, as horrified as any American citizen, and sickened by the sight of mid-east crowds celebrating. The response by the US was measured though at times questionable.
What puzzled me most though was the hostility after 9/11 shown to people visiting the US from friendly countries, mine included. We saw good people, some fellow citizens indeed, handcuffed, arrested, badly treated and thrown out of the US. I associated this hostility not so much with president bush, but to those around him, though as the commander in chief, he did bear ultimate responsibility. I viewed the like of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Rice, etc, as corrupt, bad and responsible for this. To me they represent the other side of the militant islam coin. It left me with no wish to ever visit the US.
This feeling eased with the passing of that regime, and the hope generated by the incoming Obama regime.

[earl237]

On YouTube, I found a Cheney interview from 1994 when he was defence secretary under the first and much smarter president Bush. He said that removing Saddam Hussein would be a mistake because it would destabilize the whole middle east and increase Islamic extremism and resentment towards the West. Why the heck didn't he follow his own advice when he became president? Not a typo, Bush was a puppet president while Cheney and Rumsfeld ran things behind the scenes.

[chuff]

On youtube, I found a Cheney interview from the late 80s when he was defence secretary under the first and much smarter president Bush. He said that removing Saddam Hussein would be a mistake because it would destabilize the whole middle east and increase Islamic extremism and resentment towards the West. Why the heck didn't he follow his own advice when he became president? Not a typo, Bush was a puppet president while Cheney and Rumsfeld ran things behind the scenes.

Oh my Lord.