[vlee]

Any improvement is a step n the right direction... Please just remember, it took tme for your daughter to learn that bad behavior gave her attention, it is equally as important now that good behavior gives her lots of praise and attention, and bad behavior should get a minimal reaction along with a regular punishment. I am thrilled you have made progress! Kepp up the good work! We all support you!

[chippers]

I wish I could hug you. You've undergone sooo much and managed to put your child first regardless of your own pain. I commend you for that' as for affordable councellling, you can call your state mental health department and get a list of child counselors based on your ability to pay. Plus as the others have stated. You can get her tested at school. Its your right as a parent to do so. Part of her outbursts could be due to a learning disability. Her way of dealing with it is to cover it up with disrupptive behavior.
As for the lying to you, she doenst want to be taken away from you. Lying protects from that. Think like a 7 year old. If mommy knows I did something wrong she'll send me away.
If she weren't afraid, she would tell you out right hoping to be sent back to her grand parents. You're right putting your foot done and telling her she has rules to follow.

My son, I love very dearly, as a form of autism where he has trouble controlling his emotions. Be cause the school system did't know what to do with him, winged it. He went from the school he was comfortable in to a different school. He too acted out almost daily. He even threatened to hurt his private aide who kept getting into his face. I took him a while to tell us he was acting out so he would be sent back to his other school. Once he found out that wasn't going to happen, life became more easier for him.

From experience , you can't give into her. Once you do that, you've sunk you boat.
It's going to take everyone involved to to accept this change and jerry springer won't help. Maybe Dr. Phil, but not that bozo.
You're going to want to give into everything she wants. You're going to filt guilty over what happened to her but you know what, you've already won. You have your children back. You fought so hard and looked for so long and you've won. That alone should make you sleep better at night.
Also I would becareful with leting her visit the grand parents. I doubt very much that they believe their son did nwhat he was accused of for and arrested. There could be a chance he did something to her. Hearing them say that, she might not be able to talk about it and suppress it if she thinks she'll be thought of as a liar.

[talaniman]

agrees: I can't go along with the punishment thing at all.

Sorry I was trying to disagree, as I see it this child needs time and a lot of love as she get used to a new environment and the people in it. After she adjusts she will be okay I think, until then patients and love and a firm discipline are the tools to use.

[chippers]

How much time is too much time for a child whose been kidnapped by her father and possibly abused herself. After all the guy(monster) was arrested for molesting his girlfriends child. It doesn't take much to go from one kid to another. She needs as much time as she needs to feel safe and secure in her mothers home. The out bursts and defiance is her way of testing her mom. And BEATING it out of her will only reinforce her fears.

[nmwirez]

how much time is too much time for a child whose been kidnapped by her father and possibly abused herself. after all the guy(monster) was arrested for molesting his girlfriends child. it doesn't take much to go from one kid to another. she needs as much time as she needs to feel safe and secure in her mothers home. the out bursts and defiance is her way of testing her mom. and BEATING it out of her will only reinforce her fears.

Chippers,
You have given the best advice of all, not to take away other responders good advice, and I back that up with experience of being in a boys school for 10 years. Prudent discipline with honesty is the only way to a child's well-being perceived in their own heart. Nm

[chippers]

I wish I could hug you. You've undergone sooo much and managed to put your child first regardless of your own pain. I commend you for that' as for affordable councellling, you can call your state mental health department and get a list of child councellors based on your ability to pay. plus as the others have stated. you can get her tested at school. its your right as a parent to do so. part of her outbursts could be due to a learning disability. her way of dealing with it is to cover it up with disrupptive behavior.
as for the lying to you, she doenst want to be taken away from you. lying protects from that. think like a 7 year old. If mommy knows I did something wrong she'll send me away.
If she werent afraid, she would tell you out right hoping to be sent back to her grand parents. youre right putting your foot done and telling her she has rules to follow.

My son, I love very dearly, as a form of autism where he has trouble controlling his emotions. be cause the school system did't know what to do with him, winged it. he went from the school he was comfortable in to a different school. he too acted out almost daily. he even threatened to hurt his private aide who kept getting inot his face. I took him a while to tell us he was acting out so he would be sent back to his ohter school. once he found out that wasn't going to happen, life became more easier for him.

from experience , you can't give into her. once you do that, you've sunk you boat.
It's gonna take everyone involved to to accept this change and jerry springer won't help. Maybe Dr. Phil, but not that bozo.
You're gonna want to give into everything she wants. youre gonna filt guilty over what happened to her but you know what, you've already won. you have your children back. you fought so hard and looked for so long and you've won. that alone should make you sleep better at night.
also I would becareful with leting her visit the grand parents. I doubt very much that they beleive their son did nwhat he was accused of for and arrested. there could be a chance he did something to her. hearing them say that, she might not be able to talk about it and suppress it if she thinks she'll be thought of as a liar.

I am sooooooo sorry for all the typoes. I get so passionate whena child is in pain I didn't prrof read my blog. I hope my messege was clear anyway.
Much love and my best for you and your child.

[misslala]

I think that there have been so many good posts to your dilemma that I don't really have anything to say except keep loving your daughter with your whole heart, and it will be worth it in the end. She obviously loves you very much! Nothing compares to mommy, and one day she will understand your struggles and she will tell you "thank you". I did to my mom. You are in my prayers, and I will think of you often! God bless you and your family!

[mamashann]

I have a daughter who is ODD (As well as Bi-Polar) I understand your dilemma but you need to also look at your behavior. It does not help a child to be so angry yourself. Remember, children are a product of us-they learn and get their behaviors and genes from us. So reviewing your post I see
#1 your screen name suggests you are sexual hyperactive (bi-polar indicator).
#2 you are angry "freakin jerry Springer".
#3 you may have been too strict "Ive disciplined" no reflection of praise or compassion. "She has faced consequences for her actions...still does not seem to have grasped cause and effect."
# 4 Your resentment is being focused against your child. Please view your own hostility. “As I mentioned she behaves exactly like her father did. He was always making promises to do better by us but it always turned out to be a lie. She does the exact same thing…He stole from everyone including his family and friends. She also does the same”
#5. you may want to consider your own personality disorder - paranoia (Persecution) also blaming without taking responsibility your self- a sign of various disorders such as bipolar, sociopath, borderline personality ”Well when the court date came we all went into the court room and the judge who happened to be female gave my ex husband this sort of secretive" We know something they don't" sort of wink and fluttering her eye lashes making googly eyes at him... but since she was a judge not much could have been done.”
#6 Chances are very likely the behavior is genetic. ODD is not a learned trait. All children are defiant however more likely it is genetic. All family disorders and characteristics must be reviewed. Although you may be a perfectly functioning adult you may have some characteristics that your child has acquired also.
“So then my children and their children were placed with social services…I had to take a hair strand drug test, prove that I wasn't mentally unstable, have supervised visits with the social service so they could see how I ..So my thought is she probably picked up a lot of bad behavior from her father while living with him”

“It just seems like she doesn't care.” This is common to ODD children it can also lead to conduct disorders and antisocial personality in adulthood if not addressed in childhood.

“ There have been times where she has started to tell me things about her father and his girlfriend and then stopped and refused to continue and pretended like she was saying something else when I asked her about it.” Repression and avoidance of psychologically discomforting events is normal to almost everyone. Your child can see your anger, resentment and hostility to your husband, why would she (even a mentally disturbed child) want to compound it??


PLEASE seek help for your child. I understand not everyone has great insurance but trust me there are resources to help. If you do not get help your child may become a sociopath, suicidal, hurt you or herself or become abused or become abusive. Ritalin has been effective to help children with ODD and AHDH-there are alternatives to Boot camp!! 7 is too young and it is not effective on all disorders. Not only that there have been deaths and injuries in boot camps. Not to mention the cost is high... seek professional psychiatric (NOT just COUNSELING) help!!
Sincerely,
A concerned mom of a bi-polar, ODD child
By the way- I have had to acknowledge my own personality traits as well and it helps me to understand how and why my daughter has some of these characteristics. Even though I function and have not had major problems, I realize some things are genetic from me as well as her father.

[mamashann]

chippers agrees: thank you for your support. too many people choose to corporal punishment as a method of curling behavior. kids in general IE yr olds are not bad kids but reacing to their enviornmrnt
talaniman agrees: Children need love , patients , and understanding.

Your note on "corporal punishemnt"
ODD children are the most difficult thing in the way of parenting so the norm is not even comparable. So for a normal child I would say no to spanking... here are some discipline suggestions for NORMAL kids
Tips for effective discipline:
-Trust your child to do the right thing within the limits of your child's age and stage of development. -OK with ODD kids (young sociopaths what is their definition of "the right thing"??

-Make sure what you ask for is reasonable. (trying to ask an ODD kid to stop being defiant and difficult... yeah sounds reasonable to me but not to the defiant kid-they are trying to end the cause of their frustration such as when they are having a hard time with a task (e.g. homework, some tasks they don't immediately understand, or a toy or game that they can't make work the way they want), they find that the best way to eliminate their frustration is to stop trying and do something else instead. If they want to do something and their parent (or another adult) won't let them do it, the best way to eliminate their frustration is to act in ways that might get the adult to change their mind and leave them to their own desires and interests. SO changing this behavior is saying change the core of your being.)

-Speak to your child as you would want to be spoken to if someone were reprimanding you. Don't resort to name-calling, yelling, or disrespect. (OK this one is a definite but it is actually VERY hard to stick to when dealing with ODD kids)

-Be clear about what you mean. Be firm and specific. (Yeah OK once again is definite but ODD kids engage you in discussions and arguments that go in circles that you forget what your point or request was)

-Model positive behavior. "Do as I say, not as I do" seldom works. (Yes again understandable and reasonable... sometimes hard because it is hard not to be angry with ODD kids, it is hard not to yell at ODD kids etc etc... )

-Allow for negotiation and flexibility, which can help build your child's social skills. (NO WAY-negotiation is a sign that there is compromise to the ODD kid.)

-Let your child experience the consequences of his behavior. (HAHA ODD kids have almost no conscience and do not care about consequences, as long as they avoid the frustration. For example homework is frustrating to the ODD kid, so they do not finish it. In consequence they get an F and flunk the class. The ODD kid does not care because they avoided their frustration so they are happy.)

-whenever possible, consequences should be delivered immediately, should relate to the rule broken, and be short enough in duration that you can move on again to emphasize the positives. (TOTALLY TRUE)

-Consequences should be fair and appropriate to the situation and the child's age. (It is hard to find the right consequence for ODD kids)

So I hope you can see that Dr. Spock wrote his rules for NORMAL, non-defiant kids without personality or mood disorders. Being the mother of a ODD, Bi-Polar child I can say the only thing that kept my daughter "in-line" for 12 years is corporal punishment... it is nothing to brag about but I am clear to counselors and psychiatrists that we have tried MANY different methods of punishment... sending a kid to their room might work for one kid-but not another... taking away a toy form one kid might work on one but not another... etc etc...

I feel for any parent of an ODD child. It makes you feel frustrated, incompetent, ashamed, bad, regretful, uncertain, sad, depressed, etc. It has been a roll coaster and for those of you (Without an ODD kid) who try to give advice to parent of an ODD child-please save your breath... you have NO CLUE. Sorry but it is so true.

[NowWhat]

I don't mean to be dense, but what does ODD stand for?

[talaniman]

Oppositional Defiant Disorder. And it is important to note this can only be diagnosed by a trained clinician. A child who exhibits the symptoms may be at risk, but it cannot be assumed.

[mamashann]

SO sorry-I found this because I did a search on Oppositional defiance Disorder and got here SO I assumed (my mistake) that it was clear or previously stated.
In children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), there is an ongoing pattern of uncooperative, defiant, and hostile behavior toward authority figures that seriously interferes with the youngster's day to day functioning. Symptoms of ODD may include:
• frequent temper tantrums (to the excess. For ex. My daughter would have fits when she was about 4 until she peed herself)
• excessive arguing with adults (a pattern of arguing over almost everything)
• active defiance and refusal to comply with adult requests and rules (For example, when told to do slight or fun things basically they refuse)
• deliberate attempts to annoy or upset people (oh my I could go on forever about this... my daughter was insistent on driving me nuts. They know the buttons to push)
• blaming others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior (my daughter was once suspended for hitting a boy and it was our fault because we are too strict and she is always angry so we made her do it... )
• often being touchy or easily annoyed by others
• frequent anger and resentment
• mean and hateful talking when upset (I called my daughter the exorcist... her mouth became so foul I expected vomit to come out at times... her anger was compounded by her Bi Polar disorder as well)
• seeking revenge (we cannot read their minds but it becomes a sense of mistrust, fear or concern that your child is going to hurt the pets, you, the siblings, etc)


Parents can help their child with ODD in the following ways:
• Always build on the positives, give the child praise and positive reinforcement when he shows flexibility or cooperation.
• Take a time out or break if you are about to make the conflict with your child worse, not better. This is good modeling for your child. Support your child if he decides to take a time out to prevent overreacting.
• Pick your battles. Since the child with ODD has trouble avoiding power struggles, prioritize the things you want your child to do. If you give your child a time out in his room for misbehavior, don't add time for arguing. Say "your time will start when you go to your room."
• Set up reasonable, age appropriate limits with consequences that can be enforced consistently.
• Maintain interests other than your child with ODD, so that managing your child doesn't take all your time and energy. Try to work with and obtain support from the other adults (teachers, coaches, and spouse) dealing with your child.
• Manage your own stress with exercise and relaxation. Use respite care as needed.

If you found this page -you may be trying to find answers to your problems as well. If your child has these symptoms above PLEASE seek help. Children are not always diagnosed properly either. It took 7 LONG and Difficult years (some while not seeing a therapist) to get the right diagnosis for my daughter. I even asked them when my daughter was 8 if she was ODD! BEST OF LUCK!

[mamashann]

i talked with my daughter's teacher on the phone today. she says that the behavior at school has improved a lot. which i already knew because she had been putting good notes in her agenda. the behavior at home has also improved a bit. she seems to understand that misbehaving is not going to get her sent to the great grandparents house. some things still need to be worked on like the severe lack of honesty. the thing is that now she is lying to try and impress me. its not as if i don't praise her when she does good or encourage her so i don't know why this recent change. well at least there is improvement happening.

Hi,
Look-I am sorry but I am reading all the replies and people seem to miss the boat here... as well as you NM. You previously stated your child lies. I have an ODD child and yes they do lie... about anything and everything. So I am curios why you believe this thing about her the abuse? I think it is due to your hostility and resentment to her dad (even if it is justified).
When my daughter was little I used to wonder if she was being abused... or if there was something... I didn't think so. Shrinks and counselors to this day do not think so either...
So I am not trying to be rude to you or others who have given you support but this a problem that is bigger or harder to deal with than you think so get help NOW-if the behavior is corrected before adolescence she has a great chance to not have a conduct disorder (antisocial, delinquent behavior).
I believe your daughter is probably bi-polar or ADHD (Attention defecit Disorder).

You mentioned you don't understand her change. Look once again... I tell this to my husband... you cannot understand someone with a disorder... you do not think like them and you cannot get into their head...
Bi polar disorders vary and so do their moods. GET HELP!! See a PSYCHIATRIST. Write down all the things since your daughter was born, look on websites and see what other parents have gone through to jog your memory... write all the things down you can and tell the Psychiatrist.

I have had to place my teen in psychaitrist observation 3 times before they finally properly diagnosed her and guided us to a residential treatment center for my daughter to get help[!

KEEP TRYING! Push them to diagnose her... her behavior is not normal. Those good days are probably her depressed or low days... get her help!! And yourself!

[misslala]

Hi,
Look-I am sorry but I am reading all the replies and people seem to miss the boat here...as well as you NM. You previously stated your child lies. I have an ODD child and yes they do lie...about anything and everything. So I am curios why you believe this thing about her the abuse? I think it is due to your hostility and resentment to her dad (even if it is justified).
When my daughter was little I used to wonder if she was being abused...or if there was something...I didn't think so. Shrinks and counselors to this day do not think so either...
So I am not trying to be rude to you or others who have given you support but this a problem that is bigger or harder to deal with than you think so get help NOW-if the behavior is corrected before adolescence she has a great chance to not have a conduct disorder (antisocial, delinquent behavior).
I believe your daughter is probably bi-polar or ADHD (Attention defecit Disorder).

You mentioned you don't understand her change. Look once again....i tell this to my husband...you cannot understand someone with a disorder...you do not think like them and you cannot get into their head....
Bi polar disorders vary and so do their moods. GET HELP!!!!! See a PSYCHIATRIST. Write down all the things since your daughter was born, look on websites and see what other parents have gone through to jog your memory...write all the things down you can and tell the Psychiatrist.

I have had to place my teen in psychaitrist observation 3 times before they finally properly diagnosed her and guided us to a residential treatment center for my daughter to get help[!

KEEP TRYING!! Push them to diagnose her...her behavior is not normal. Those good days are probably her depressed or low days...get her help!!! And yourself!!

She believes the abuse stories because her ex was in trouble for abusing his girlfriends son.

[chippers]

The girl and her mother have been through hell and back. Since being taken away from her mother, they are in fact strangers. Mom did everyhting in her power to get her child back. They have a lot to work out and anyone who says counseling isn't the answer doesn't fully understand their trouble. Those who say councilling is a waste of time or a gimmick are fooling themselves. There are good therapist out there (as well as ducks) the they do help.
The prime objective of the mom is to show her daughter she isn't going anywhere and is welcomed and loved and wanted. Then once the trauma of her kidnapping (yes that's what it was) being hidden and possibly abused by her own father is taken care THEN she can work on finding out if her child does have a learning disability. From experience, the child is acting out due to what has happened in her young fragile life. The last thing she needs is someone else telling she's got something else wrong with her as well. Kids have a funy way of blaming themselves for whatever is thrown their way. Like daddy did this to me, took me away from my mommy because I was this way or have this wrong with me.
I fully understand what it's like to have a child with a behavior disorder(my son has aspergers) but if he were in the little girls position,I would be making it my priority to make sure he knew how much I loved him and how much I wanted him back in my arms and my life. I don't how she made so long without knowing where her children were. Lord knows I'm not that strong. As human beings we carry lots of labels like wife, daughter, sister, friend but thoe one we cherish is that of mother.

[mekitty1]

I had a little talk with my seven year old today since I have been trying to find out what is going on with her. When I ask her why she misbehaves she normally shrugs her shoulders. This time I asked her what she was trying to get from it. She told me that she wants to go live with her Nana and Papa who happen to be the grandparents of my ex. She thinks that if she acts up enough that I won't want her anymore and will send her to her great grandparents. Nana and Papa don't have rules at their house. They don't believe in discipline. Mom makes rules. Mom is not cool. Not cool at all. :(

I feel this one completely I hear it almost daily.