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 Originally Posted by Starman
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No, there is only one true faith, which is Christianity, and in the end as Rev and other bible prophecy tells us ( heck even the Quran tells us) there will be a final great War between beleivers and non believers, nothing can stop that day from coming.
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Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
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Starman-First I would like to clarify:
We are not in any position to condemned anyone to eternal damnation based on his or her present beliefs. God values sincerity and understands when one is mislead and he doesn't destroy based on ignorance but gives each person a chance to make an INFORMED decision. From a Christian viewpoint that informed decision is based on the certain knowledge that Jesus died for our sins and that salvation comes only by accepting it and taking the necessary action to avail ourselves of the benefits. That's your version and your welcome to it About similarities and differences between and among: True, there are certain doctrinal differences within the Christian ranks. But ultimately, all Christians acknowledge Jesus as savior and that is the unifying factor. In short, when the time comes for God to begin doctrinal clarification, Christians will not have to begin to accept Jesus-since they already have. In contrast, Buddhists, Shintoists, Moslems, and all other nonChrisatians will have to make a complete doctrinal about face. Because one believes differently do we have to fight about it, lets do lunch, I can wear red you can wear blue. What difference does it make? So from a Christian standpoint, it is primarily that crucial fact--the acceptance or rejection of the Ransom Sacrifice which drastically separates Christian from Moslems. So thats an excuse to fight instead of break bread? Are we worshipping the same God? I would say that barring such practices as human sacrifices and other such obviously demonic things, it depends on how God views each person's heart. The intention might be honest and pure and it is appreciated. But the manner might need some adjustments. In his mercy God is just and it's best to let him decide that on an individual basis. But ultimately he will require that we listen to what he tells us is the WAY to worship and our reaction to that requirement will determine whether we gain eternal life. By your own words their is only one God so no matter the rest he will judge as he does and we can only succumb to that judgement Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Originally Posted by ordinaryguy
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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th Statements Against Terror Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks The American Muslim (TAM) One quote:
Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:
“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur'an: 'No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another' (Surah al-Isra 17:15).” MSANews, September 14, 2001, http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/200109/20010917.15.html; Arabic original in al-Quds al-Arabi (London), September 14, 2001, p. 2, http://www.alquds.co.uk/Alquds/2001/09Sep/14%20Sep%20Fri/Quds02.pdf Priest Anglican Church International |
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Random thoughts: The inquisition was not Christian. The crusades were military and prevented Islam from covering Europe, though presented as religious. The best way to defuse the strain between Christianity and Islam is to let Muslims freely hear the Gospel and freely choose which way they want to go. (Ain't likely to happen!) Christians have had the freedom to hear about Mohammed for a long time. I am convinced that the reason that Muslims do not have access to the teachings of Christ in those coutries that they rule is because Islam fears the Gospel.
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Originally Posted by galveston
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The crusades were to stop the crazy fools from doing then, what they are doing now.
What do you want to do tonight Brain? What do we do every night Pinky... take over the world! Pinky and the Brain, Pinky and the Brain, One is a genius and the others insane! |
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Originally Posted by talaniman
You are entitled to your opinion that all religions are equally acceptable to God and that He hasn't communicated with mankind via his written word. But that's neither a Christian nor a Moslem view. 1. My version? Not at all. The biblical version supported by both OT and NT scriptures. 2. Yes, there is only one God. But the rest does matter. 2. I never said we should fight about it nor hold one another in utter contempt because of it. If I did show me where. 4. The analogy between wearing different colors and practicing different religions is a False one. One is a moral matter and the other isn't. BTW Sorry about the delay in responding to your question. I am not always here nor using the computer so immediate responses are impossible in my case. |
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Originally Posted by magprob
Quote=Starman You are entitled to your opinion that all religions are equally acceptable to God and that He hasn't communicated with mankind via his written word. But that's neither a Christian nor a Moslem view. I am neither a christian nor muslim either. 1. My version? Not at all. The biblical version supported by both OT and NT scriptures. Which means nothing to me as I am not christian, Neither was Christ 2. Yes, there is only one God. But the rest does matter. 2. I never said we should fight about it nor hold one another in utter contempt because of it. If I did show me where. Honestly Starman, I respect you and what you believe, you may quote a lot of book but I've yet to see you make people feel inferior because they may disagree, I concede the point. 4. The analogy between wearing different colors and practicing different religions is a False one. One is a moral matter and the other isn't. I disagree, the point was people of differences can enjoy lunch together. We should try sometime, my treat. How about the branches of an oak tree are oak.(Different religons same faith) BTW Sorry about the delay in responding to your question. I am not always here nor using the computer so immediate responses are impossible in my case No sweat I been babysitting anyway. |
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Originally Posted by talaniman
The reason I pointed out that my beliefs have scriptural support is because what I said was referred to as My Version. That's called heresy. Please consider that the only way for a Christian can defend himself against that accusation is to provide scriptural support . Therefore my reference to scripture. The alternative would be to agree via silence. My reference to Christians and Moslems was meant as a reminder that these are the two religions being contrasted and compared and that both are similar in their belief in divine revelation via the written word. Christ was under the Mosaic Law and expected all those who were under the Mosaic law to follow it while it was still in force. That included his Apostles and disciples who were all Jews. However, he came as a mediator of a New Covenant which would be made legal before God via his death. Once that New Covenant took effect then his followers would no longer have to feel bound by the ceremonial requirements of the Mosaic Law. In short, Jesus came to establish an approach to God with himself as mediator which later came to be called Christianity. He prepared the foundation of Christianity by teaching his Apostles what the Christian requirements would be. There are many scriptures prior to his death in which he explicitly tells his followers the details of what Christanity would be based upon--his ransom sacrifice for forgiveness of sins being the most important. BTW I agree with you on the getting along with people of other faiths. |
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Discussion is good. Is not diplomacy based on it? In sifting through the posts, I see people on both sides of this, so it raises further interest on the subect, to wit:
Let's assume for the moment that both Jehovah and Allah are the God revealed in the Old Testament. (Personally, I don't think they are in any way related, but let's assume so for a moment.) 1. Judaism accepts Jehovah, but does not accept Jesus as His Son. They believe that the Messiah (anointed one) will come some day. Do they believe that Messiah will be the Son of God? (Maybe someone of the Jewish faith will answer this) 2. Islam denies the idea that Allah would have a son. 3. Christianity believes that Jesus is the Son of God. Now: 1. Judaism tolerates Christianity pretty well. 2. Christianity, for the most part tolerates Judaism and most other religions because Jesus taught us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. A non-violent approach based on persuasion is the tool of Christian growth. 1. Islam tolerates no other religion, and aims for world domination enforced by might, this is proven by history and current events. Perhaps some Muslim will explain the differences within Islam, and identify whether these intolerant, violent, members are mainstream, or what? Doesn't all of this suggest a different tree, rather than different branches of the same one? |
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Originally Posted by Morganite in response to RickJ saying "I don't think it's a valid question."
Another faith group describes/defines God the same way. ... so instead of saying "I don't think it is a valid question", I should have said "By definition (that is agreed upon by both groups) God and Allah are one and the same" Does that make sense? |
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Here's something interesting I found about this topic and the discussion going on here.
"1. QUR’AN PLAGIARIZED FROM THE BIBLE : Question Is it not true that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has copied the Qur’an from the Bible? Answer Many critics allege that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) himself was not the author of the Qur’an but he learnt it and/or plagiarised (copied or adapted) it from other human sources or from previous scriptures or revelations. 1. MUHUMMAD LEARNT THE QUR’AN FROM A ROMAN BLACKSMITH WHO WAS A CHRISTIAN Some Pagans accused the Prophet of learning the Qur’an from a Roman Blacksmith, who was a Christian staying at the outskirts of Makkah. The Prophet very often used to go and watch him do his work. A revelation of the Qur’an was sufficient to dismiss this charge - the Qur’an says in Surah An-Nahl chapter 16 verse 103: "We know indeed that they say, ‘It is a man that teaches him,’ The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear." [Al-Qur’an 16:103] How could a person whose mother tongue was foreign and could hardly speak little but of poor broken Arabic be the source of the Qur’an which is pure, eloquent, fine Arabic? To believe that the blacksmith taught the Prophet the Qur’an is some what similar to believing that a Chinese immigrant to England, who did not know proper English, taught Shakespeare. 2. MUHUMMAD (PBUH) LEARNT FROM WARAQA - THE RELATIVE OF KHADIJAH (RA) Muhummad’s (pbuh) contacts with the Jewish and Christian Scholars were very limited. The most prominent Christian known to him was an old blind man called Waraqa ibn-Naufal who was a relative of the Prophet’s first wife Khadijah (r.a.). Although of Arab descent, he was a convert to Christianity and was very well versed with the New Testament. The Prophet only met him twice, first when Waraqa was worshipping at the Kaaba (before the Prophetic Mission) and he kissed the Prophet’s forehead affectionately; the second occasion was when the Prophet went to meet Waraqa after receiving the first revelation. Waraqa died three years later and the revelation continued for about 23 years. It is ridiculous to assume that Waraqa was the source of the contents of the Qur’an. 3. PROPHET’S RELIGIOUS DISCUSSIONS WITH THE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS It is true that the Prophet did have religious discussions with the Jews and Christians but they took place in Madinah more than 13 years after the revelation of the Qur’an had started. The allegation that these Jews and Christians were the source is perverse, since in these discussions Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was performing the roles of a teacher and of a preacher while inviting them to embrace Islam and pointing out that they had deviated from their true teachings of Monotheism. Several of these Jews and Christians later embraced Islam." second part of the quesion above. ". THE PROPHET LEARNT THE QUR’AN FROM THOSE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS THAT HE MET OUTSIDE ARABIA All historical records available show that Muhummad (pbuh) had made only three trips outside Makkah before his Prophethood: At the age of 9 he accompanied his mother to Madinah. Between the age of 9 and 12, he accompanied his uncle Abu-Talib on a business trip to Syria. At the age of 25 he led Khadija’s Caravan to Syria. It is highly imaginary to assume that the Qur’an resulted from the occasional chats and meetings with the Christians or Jews from any of the above three trips. 5. LOGICAL GROUNDS TO PROVE THAT THE PROPHET DID NOT LEARN THE QUR’AN FROM JEWS OR CHRISTIANS The day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. In fact a revelation came asking people to give the Prophet (pbuh) privacy in his own home. If the Prophet had been meeting people who told him what to say as a revelation from God, this would not have been hidden for very long. The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years. The enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim that he was a liar - they could not point out even a single instance when the Prophet may have had a secret rendezvous with particular Jews and Christians. It is inconceivable that any human author of the Qur’an would have accepted a situation in which he received no credit whatsoever for originating the Qur’an. Thus, historically and logically it cannot be established that there was a human source for the Qur’an. 6. MUHUMMAD (PBUH) WAS AN ILLITERATE The theory that Muhummad (pbuh) authored the Qur’an or copied from other sources can be disproved by the single historical fact that he was illiterate. Allah testifies Himself in the Qur’an In Surah Al-Ankabut chapter no.29 verse 48 "And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted." [Al-Qur’an 29:48] Allah (swt) knew that many would doubt the authenticity of the Qur’an and would ascribe it to Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). Therefore Allah in His Divine Wisdom chose the last and final Messenger to be an ‘Ummi’, i.e. unlettered, so that the talkers of vanity would not then have the slightest justification to doubt the Prophet. The accusation of his enemies that he had copied the Qur’an from other sources and rehashed it all in a beautiful language might have carried some weight, but even this flimsy pretence has been deprived to the unbeliever and the cynic. Allah reconfirms in the Qur’an in Surah Al A’raf chapter 7 verse 157: "Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel" The prophecy of coming of the unlettered Prophet (pbuh) is also mentioned in the Bible in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12. "And the book is delivered to him that is not learned." [Isaiah 29:12] The Qur’an testifies in no less than four different places that the Prophet (pbuh) was illiterate. It is also mentioned in Surah A’raf chapter 7 verse 158 and in Surah Al-Jumu’a chapter 62 verse 2. 7. ARABIC VERSION OF THE BIBLE WAS NOT PRESENT" |
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More on that
"7. ARABIC VERSION OF THE BIBLE WAS NOT PRESENT The Arabic version of the Bible was not present at the time of Prophet Muhummad (pbuh). The earliest Arabic version of the Old Testament is that of R. Saadias Gaon of 900 C.E. - more than 250 years after the death of our beloved Prophet. The oldest Arabic version of the new Testament was published by Erpenius in 1616 C.E. - about a thousand years after the demise of our Prophet. 8. SIMILARITIES IN THE QUR’AN AND THE BIBLE DUE TO COMMON SOURCE Similarities between the Qur’an and the Bible does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. In fact it gives evidence that both of them are based on a common third source; all divine revelations came from the same source - the one universal God. No matter what human changes were introduced into some of these Judeo-Christian and other older religious scriptures that had distorted their originality, there are some areas that have remained free from distortion and thus are common to many religions. It is true that there are some similar parallels between the Qur’an and the Bible but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (pbuh) of compiling or copying from the Bible. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament. The similarities between the two signify a common source that is one true God and the continuation of the basic message of monotheism and not that the later prophets have plagiarised from the previous prophets. If someone copies during an examination he will surely not write in the answer sheet that he has copied from his neighbour or Mr. XYZ. Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) gave due respect and credit to all the previous prophets (pbut). The Qur’an also mentions the various revelations given by Almighty God to different prophets. 9. MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN THE TAURAH, ZABOOR, INJEEL AND QUR’AN Four revelations of Allah (swt) are mentioned by name in the Qur’an: the Taurah, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an. Taurah, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Moosa (a. s.) i.e. Moses (pbuh). Zaboor, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Dawood (a.s.) i.e. David (pbuh). Injeel, the revelation i.e. the Wahi given to Isa (A.S.) ie. Jesus (pbuh). ‘Al-Qur’an’, the last and final Wahi i.e. revelation given to the last and final Messenger Muhammad (pbuh). It is an article of faith for every Muslim to believe in all the Prophets of God and all revelations of God. However, the present day Bible has the first five books of the Old Testament attributed to Moses and the Psalms attributed to David. Moreover the New Testament or the four Gospels of the New Testament are not the Taurah, the Zaboor or the Injeel, which the Qur’an refers to. These books of the present day Bible may partly contain the word of God but these books are certainly not the exact, accurate and complete revelations given to the prophets. The Qur’an presents all the different prophets of Allah as belonging to one single brotherhood; all had a similar prophetic mission and the same basic message. Because of this, the fundamental teachings of the major faiths cannot be contradictory, even if there has been a considerable passage of time between the different prophetic missions, because the source of these missions was one: Almighty God, Allah. This is why the Qur’an says that the differences which exist between various religions are not the responsibility of the prophets, but of the followers of these prophets who forgot part of what they had been taught, and furthermore, misinterpreted and changed the scriptures. The Qur’an cannot therefore be seen as a scripture which competes with the teachings of Moses, Jesus and the other prophets. On the contrary, it confirms, completes and perfects the messages that they brought to their people. Another name for the Qur’an is the ‘The Furqan’ which means the criteria to judge the right from the wrong, and it is on the basis of the Qur’an that we can decipher which part of the previous scriptures can be considered to be the word of God. 10. SCIENTIFIC COMPARISON BETWEEN QUR’AN AND BIBLE If you glance through the Bible and the Qur’an you may find several points which appear to be exactly the same in both of them, but when you analyse them closely, you realise that there is a difference of ‘chalk and cheese’ between them. Only based on historical details it is difficult for someone who is neither conversant with Christianity or Islam to come to a firm decision as to which of the scriptures is true; however if you verify the relevant passages of both the scriptures against scientific knowledge, you will yourself realize the truth. " Creation of the Universe in Six Days As per the Bible, in the first book of Genesis in Chapter One, the universe was created in six days and each day is defined as a twenty-four hours period. Even though the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, ‘Ayyaam’ is the plural of years; this word has two meanings: firstly, it means a standard twenty-four hours period i.e. a day, and secondly, it also means stage, period or epoch which is a very long period. When the Qur’an mentions that the universe was created in six ‘Ayyaams’, it refers to the creation of the heavens and the earth in six long periods or epochs; scientists have no objection to this statement. The creation of the universe has taken billions of years, which proves false or contradicts the concept of the Bible which states that the creation of the Universe took six days of twenty-four hour durations each. Sun Created After the Day The Bible says in chapter 1, verses 3-5, of Genesis that the phenomenon of day and night was created on the first day of creation of the Universe by God. The light circulating in the universe is the result of a complex reaction in the stars; these stars were created according to the Bible (Genesis chapter 1 verse 14 to 19) on the fourth day. It is illogical to mention the result that is the light (the phenomenon of day and night) was created on the first day of Creation when the cause or source of the light was created three days later. Moreover the existence of evening and morning as elements of a single day is only conceivable after the creation of the earth and its rotation around the sun. In contrast with the contents of the Bible on this issue, the Qur’an does not give any unscientific sequence of Creation. Hence it is absolutely absurd to say that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) copied the passages pertaining to the creation of the universe from the Bible but missed out this illogical and fantastic sequence of the Bible. Creation of the Sun, The Earth and the Moon According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 9 to 13, the earth was created on the third day, and as per verses 14 to 19, the sun and the moon were created on the fourth day. The earth and the moon emanated, as we know, from their original star, the Sun. Hence to place the creation of the sun and the moon after the creation of the earth is contrary to the established idea about the formation of the solar system. Vegetation Created on the third day and Sun on the fourth day According to the Bible, Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verses 11-13, vegetation was created on the third day along with seed-bearing grasses, plants and trees; and further on as per verses 14-19, the sun was created on the fourth day. How is it scientifically possible for the vegetation to have appeared without the presence of the sun, as has been stated in the Bible? If Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) was indeed the author of the Qur’an and had copied its contents from the Bible, how did he manage to avoid the factual errors that the Bible contains? The Qur’an does not contain any statements which are incompatible with scientific facts. The Sun and the Moon both Emit light According to the Bible both the sun and the moon emit their own light. In the Book of Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16 says, "And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night". Science tells us today that the moon does not have its own light. This confirms the Qur’anic concept that the light of the moon is a reflected light. To think that 1400 years ago, Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) corrected these scientific errors in the Bible and then copied such corrected passages in the Qur’an is to think of something impossible." There's a lot more about this, I think I already posted more then enough I supposed to. Sorry for that. |
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Where does that come from?
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Originally Posted by RickJ
Da'wah Training Programme Instead of copy and pasting the whole text perhaps linking to it would have been preferable. |
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Originally Posted by NeedKarma
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hadi88-
Isn't it true that Muslims do not believe the Holocaust took place? If they believe the Old Testament, there is a prophecy that has been fulfilled, the grimmest imaginable outworking of the ancient curse. Deuteronomy 28:64-67- Then the Lord will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other gods-gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. Among these nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the Lord will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. You will live in constant suspence, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. In the morning you will say,"if only it were evening!"and in the evening,"if only it were morning!"- because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. And if so close to the Old Testament, why do the Palestinians ignore the fact that the early Israelites BOUGHT those tracts of land from the people living there at the time? Free & clear! Just a couple of questions I have for today! |
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