[Anopersuser]

As I said, I'm going to talk to him the next time I see him. I'm not going to talk angry, just tell how I feel, and how upset my little daughter has been.

[redhed35]

I read this post with interest,my first impression was the kids were being taken out for a social occasion,they were well dressed,clean,well behaved,and the father corrected their behaviour when HE thought it was out of line.

OK,so the girl spilled food on her blouse and he gave out,I can't tell you the amount of times I have given out to my kids when they were younger for getting their good clothes dirty,as a parent I know I can put my hand up and say I have given out when that has happened,I have also corrected their behaviour in public and I have in the past threathened to chop off my daughters legs if she continued to kick the table in a restaurant!

Many times I have seen feral children run havoc in restaurants and the parents looking on blissfully ignoring the whole thing.

This guy may be strict,but I bet the kids are well fed clean,have a routine,don't miss school,have a bedtime and know their manners,that's not such a bad thing really.

The only recourse that you may have is too not go there any more,or a different night, or if it happens again to say it to the staff.

You don't really know the whole story,for you he may have seemed over the top,for someone else it may have seemed perfectly fine.

Just be careful if you decide to approach him,you may get an earful.

[DoulaLC]

Is this the only time you have seen this family. Or have you seen the same outside of the restaurant?

While he sounds harsh, telling his children what to do and what not to do is not abuse. You even mentioned that he will praise them as well. If this is the only place you see them, or all that you know of them, it does not mean that they have no childhood. Many kids do not like to dress up. Kids sometimes play around or don't pay attention to what they are doing and spill their drinks. Accident, sure, but parents often get after their child to be more careful. Some have a shorter fuse than others.

Yes, they may be more strict than you would be, yes, he may raise his voice louder than he needs to, but be very careful that you don't make assumptions based on snipets of conversation and observation.

I understand that this upsets you and your daughter, so say something, it may cause him to give some more thought and perhaps tone things down, at least at the restaurant. But again, they seem very confident in how they are raising their daughters.

I wish you well with the situation... I'd be curious to hear how it goes.

[QLP]

Yes, please let us know how it goes.

[Anopersuser]

Like other I have also told my daughter not getting her blouse dirty with a strict voice when she's dressed up, but not shouting like that. If she starts to cry we always comfort her and talk, not continue to shout at her making her even more sad. .

[Anopersuser]

Yes, we also have our daughter dressed up in a blouse and a skirt for special events. She doesn't like it, but does it too. . It's what I have heard, that their parents are super strict with so much. I don't know much more, and try avoid gossip.

[Anopersuser]

Maybe it's not officially emotional child abuse, but I'm worried for how all these years of shoutings will affect his daughters. It can make them sad, or afraid. Afraid of their parents, and afraid of doing misstakes.

[Anopersuser]

If I go there on Friday and discover him, but he doesn't shout at his daughters that time, do you think I still shall try to talk with him that time, or wait for another time?

[Anopersuser]

This is what happened last Friday. I went there without my daughter, and soon he arrived with his two daughters. The girls were dressed up in their blouses and skirts as usual, and their father seemed to correct them for everything, talking strict to them like "–Don't sit like that", "–Don't talk so loud" and they had to reply like "–Excuse me, father".

Then he calmed down, as his daughters managed to follow his instructions, but when the younger girl sat floundering with her legs a little bit, just like anyone would do, he begun to raise his voice again. When he discovered the older girl wearing her blouse a little bit un-tucked, his shouting about "–Careless girls" begun again, not so loud as last Friday (which was his worst shouting ever), but the girls started crying a little bit and told they were sorry for their mistakes.

Then, he went to the toilet, the moment I had been waiting for. I could hear the girls talking to each other, and the older one comforted her sister, drying her tears and saying how much she loved her, and was so tired of this, both in the home and in public. I was so touched and it was not so many people there this time, and I had to go there and ask how they felt, and if they were abused. The older girl, who said she was 14, told they weren't abused, but she and her sister did anything they could to follow their parents' strict rules and dress codes, as they loved their family, but were usually only met with a raised voice or shouting for every single little mistake, especially by their father. I told them they have always seemed to behave well, and even told how upset my 12 year old daughter was last Friday.

I asked if they were afraid, and they said not of abuse, but they had a big pressure to do well at school, to avoid their father shouting. I also asked if they were ever comforted, and the big girl said only when they were really sad, like if a loved one died or something.

The younger girl, who told she was 10, then said that for every weekend, holiday and special event, they had to put on these blouses and skirts to "look good in clothing". I said I also require my 12 year old daughter do so for special events and holidays, but not so often. The older girl said the same, but she at least accepted it, but the big problem was not that, but their father shouting.

I even told that my daughter would like to meet them, and that I would invite them one afternoon if their parents said yes. The older girl told me she has seen my daughter, and she seemed to behave well without any shouting.

When I saw he went back I went towards him, asking what he was doing to them. I told him his shouting last Friday made my daughter very upset, and worried for them and that I talked to them. He raised his voice a little bit, but nothing compared to how he does to his daughters sometimes, telling me it was his daughters, and he has the right to raise them as strict as possible to teach them good behavior and respect until they were 18. He also said they do not belong to me, any other person the state, and he would always love them and never abuse them. I asked him if he was threatened that way himself, he said "–No", but also seems very conservative continuing "–But my daughters are girls, and from an early age, a girl shall always be taught good behavior, respect and know how to dress well" (How I wanted to say –OK, but it's 2010 now, but didn't).

I asked him why he continues to shout when they cry, telling that in our family we always comfort our daughter when she cries, not making her even more sad than she already is. He just said he teaches them to behave well.

Finally, I said that that my daughter would like to see his daughters. He just said my daughter could stop worrying and stay with her friends instead. Then he told me he had no more time for talking with me about this, and left the place with his daughters.

When I came home, we told our daughter to sit down with us in the kitchen, so I could tell what happened. She calmed down when I said it was no abuse, but when I told her about what they said, she begun to cry and ask how he could require so much from just two little girls (even if one of them is older than our daughter), and be so mad just because an un-tucked blouse (we have always told her not to wear blouses and button shirts un-tucked when she's dressed up). I comforted her saying it was nothing compared to the thing that is actually called child abuse, reminding her of some years ago when she was upset when I talked to her about real child abuse from a newspaper issue (it was really scary stories, with children being beaten, called names, sexually abused, neglected, isolated, spit at, forced to wear humiliating clothes, parents telling they hated their children and even one about a teenage girl being threatened like a baby and totally broken down for the rest of her life, which was reality and no movies), when I tried to explain how bad some children are threatened when no police or government see, I even reminded her about the extreme Fritzl case (even if that girl was 18 she was taken to the basement).

Before our daughter went to bed we remided her how much we had always loved her and would always do (and if she would become a criminal we would hate the crimes, not her), and whenever she was sad she could talk to us, and cry when she needed, and when we tell her we want her to show respect for us, that's just respect and not fear. I also told her to never give up her hope to meet the two girls again as she wanted, but that we would not go to there on a Friday again, at least not for a while. I told my daughter we are proude of her being such an emotional little girl, her compassion for others may always be her strongest side.

[Jake2008]

I am impressed that you talked to him, and to his daughters. He will know that he has been 'noticed' and is not immune to his abusive behaviour in public. The daughters will know that there are adults out there who understand things aren't quite right, and that may prove to be a reminder down the road, should they need outside help.

That being said, I'm also glad that you talked to your daughter about child abuse, which doesn't take place in the public eye for he most part. As hard as it may be for your daughter to hear, giving her this learning opportunity by talking turkey about it, is doing the responsible thing. At some point in her life, she will be a better person and parent because she was made aware.

At first I thought you were all talk, no action, but, I am now duly impressed that you did what most of us should do in circumstances where abusers think they are immune to being asked directly about their behaviour, when clearly it is abusive.

I hope that the girls didn't get the third, fourth, and fifth degree when they got home, but by the sounds of things, I would not be surprised if a teacher, or other parent or adult has also talked to these girls, or the parents.

Thanks for stopping in to catch us up on what has happened.

[DoulaLC]

I'm surprised you were able to get so much information from the girls while their father was in the toilet.
I don't imagine you are surprised that he didn't take you up on the offer of having his daughters round to spend time with your daughter.
You certainly gave your daughter a thorough explanation of what constitutes abuse as well.

[Anopersuser]

His toilet visit lasted long, which better allowed me to talk with his daughters.

What can I do to let my daughter see his daughters (they're not in the same school)? Call them? (I know their family name), but fear I will just hear the same "–It's my daughters" again. With today's debate, I know their parents need to accept the invitation, but I can say it was my daughter who would like to invite them for an afternoon, in our home. We don't want to invite their parents.

I also think those girls would feel much better if they, just for some hours, could visit a home where they can meet a and talk with a girl who is always loved for the one she is, can always talk about her fears and problems to her parents, respect is not the same as fear, mistakes are always allowed, crying is comforted and not made worse, and bad behavior and un-tucked blouses or spilling on them are met with a correction, but not shouting.

I will tell them how many adult people out there who understand shouting like that is not OK, but while we can't do so much, there are children experiencing so much worse things (if that's consoling?). I also told my daughter how she can talk with them (ask if they have many friends, if they have any hobbies or activities, which music bands they like most, if they feel better at school, if their schoolteachers know how extreme super strict their parents are, and how they think), but be prepared to do what she can to say something comforting to them if they are sad, and also not talk too much aobut private issues.

What also really touched me is how these girls said they loved their parents so much. OK, so thankfully they aren't beaten, but I also think at least the 14 year old girl would try a least a little bit teenage girl revolt as their parents were so strict (but still love them in her heart and soul), but she just seemed to continue doing and dressing exactly as she was told. Today I asked our daughter if she would love us even if we abused her (just as a question, not me asking to abuse her), and with a crying she replied she would still always do.

[Jake2008]

I think that you are now in rescue mode, and that would only likely cause more problems.

For one thing, he's made it quite clear that he doesn't wish to have his children on a playdate with your daughter. For another thing, your daughter is put in an awkward position of being an accessory to entertaining them and by the sound of things, the father sounds far too threatened by the outside world, to allow any influences on his daughters. Not to mention that your daughter has spent too much time already crying over their situation and being upset already. I can't see how furthering her involvement with these children, will make things better for all concerned.

To be involved further with the daughters, will mean being involved further with the father (and mother), and my opinion is, you should let it go, because he will not let it happen. Even if he did, he would likely then ask your daughter over to his house, and like you not wanting to invite their parents, he would not want to invite you either. Do you or your daughter feel comfortable with a reciprocal arrangement?

Other than what you have already done, my advice to you is to let the issue rest.

[Anopersuser]

Our daughter doesn't want to play with them, just talk with them how they feel. I also think children comforting each other is a good idea, even in more serious cases but when I read what you write, I also doubt..

[Jake2008]

One other thing you might want to do, is detail what you have so far. Dates, times, observations, your conversation with him, your conversation with the girls.

You may become aware of others' involvement with this family such as the school, and if and when that happens, you could offer the information you have, in a safe, confidential way, which would be helpful, should an investigation ever occur.

The father is a strange character, but it is not a good idea to further involve yourself with him, as you would have to, should you wish further contact with his daughters.

His attitude that you mentioned, he is quite right. He doesn't have to answer to anybody about how he parents his children, but, at some point, perhaps he will.

[jenniepepsi]

To me this sounds either religious or cultural. It is how their family runs. And unless the girls are being abused or neglected, its no one else's business. I know how you feel, it hurts my heart just to hear about it. But they are his children. And he isn't breaking a law by being more strict than other parents are.

[Anopersuser]

As I said, he at least could talk about it.

[Anopersuser]

What happens is him having very strict and conservative upper class view how a girl shall be raised, behave, obey, look, dress and appear (as he told he wasn't threatened strict as child, but they are girls). Our daughter at least feels better now.

[Anopersuser]

Yes, my daughter knows what real abuse is. We have cried together over newspaper articles about abuse, and I explain to her that how these girls are threatened may not go under abuse and be illegal, but can still bring the girls sad memories.

[Anopersuser]

As I said, I was so touched by seeing these two girls being sad. I can just imagine the pressure the girls may feel to meet all requirements and dress codes, or having to listen to him shouting for every little single misstake.