[Kitkat22]

My parents bred, I have NO problem with reputable breeders, My choice however is rescue. I will not purchase a dog from a breeder. 1. I don't ever plan on having a show dog (at least not in the near future) 2. I don't plan on breeding.

The breed that I fell in love with comes in to our shelters daily, and yes a lot of them are pure bred and do have papers. I have nothing against people who do buy pure bred, who are reputable breeders, it's just not the choice for me.

We have always had German Shepherds and Shih Tzu's in our homes growing up, in my home I have one pure bred Am Staff and one Boxer Staffy mix. I love them and wouldn't trade them for the world. Both rescues.

What fester is spewing here is extreme PETA crapolla. Yea the dogs shouldn't have been domesticated in the first place, but guess what? We did it, now we have to take care of them.

Fester probably goes to chicken fights and bets on the fattest one:eek:

[Catsmine]

Alty, you're right. Re-reading it was Hondo he helped to pass. I still applaud him.

As for kids and dogs being property, are you responsible for them? Do you control what they do, where they live, what they eat? Are they "yours?"

One thing I did forget to add this morning: Property rights are not absolute. You cannot drive your car in an unsafe manner even on (some) private roads without being arrested and have it confiscated. You cannot beat or starve your children without facing lawsuits and having your children confiscated. No shirt, no shoes, no service: you can't even dress your own body the way you want to. There's a court case somewhere against a guy for being naked in his living room with the drapes open.

KitKat, further insulting posts, while cathartic, are violations and will be reported.

Mogrann, have Owen tested before deciding about breeding him. From what Binx has said he might be a valuable contribution to the breed.

[Kitkat22]

Alty, you're right. Re-reading it was Hondo he helped to pass. I still applaud him.

As for kids and dogs being property, are you responsible for them? Do you control what they do, where they live, what they eat? Are they "yours?"

One thing I did forget to add this morning: Property rights are not absolute. You cannot drive your car in an unsafe manner even on (some) private roads without being arrested and have it confiscated. You cannot beat or starve your children without facing lawsuits and having your children confiscated. No shirt, no shoes, no service: you can't even dress your own body the way you want to. There's a court case somewhere against a guy for being naked in his living room with the drapes open.

KitKat, further insulting posts, while cathartic, are violations and will be reported.

Mogrann, have Owen tested before deciding about breeding him. From what Binx has said he might be a valuable contribution to the breed.

I hear you Boss...

[Alty]

As for kids and dogs being property, are you responsible for them? Do you control what they do, where they live, what they eat? Are they "yours?"

I think we disagree on the word property Cats. To me property is something I own, something that has no feelings, something I can do with whatever I want. My house is my property. If I want to paint the interior lime green with pink polka dots, I can. My car is my property. If I don't want it anymore, I can sell it with no second thoughts that I'm not doing the right thing for the car.

I do see were you're coming from, I guess I don't agree with the term "property". I am responsible for my kids and my pets. But, there are also laws protecting my kids and pets from harm, because they are living things. I cannot beat my kids or my dogs, I cannot abandon my kids or dogs on the side of the road. I have to make sure that both my kids and dogs are cared for and given the best care I can provide. I don't have to do that with my property.

[shazamataz]

My dogs own me.

A few weeks ago Brody managed to open the refrigerator and help himself to 1kg of chicken breast fillets and some mince. Needless to say he didn't feel like eating his dinner that night :rolleyes:

To the rest of the world my dogs are my property, they are registered to me, I paid for them, but to me they are family.

[Catsmine]

I do see were you're coming from, I guess I don't agree with the term "property". I am responsible for my kids and my pets. But, there are also laws protecting my kids and pets from harm, because they are living things. I cannot beat my kids or my dogs, I cannot abandon my kids or dogs on the side of the road. I have to make sure that both my kids and dogs are cared for and given the best care I can provide. I don't have to do that with my property.

My questions were from John Locke's definitions of "property." I'm trying to illustrate the basis of Festoids' claims, or at least the naturalist one's from his Second Treatise. The later definitions involving one's labor being required I can't get behind.

The Hurricane waits for me to cook the chicken, Shaz.

[Aurora_Bell]

I do agree with Alty on this one. No it's not because we are friends, but if we treat our kids like how fester here says we should be able to treat our dogs, not only are we going to have a bunch of feral dogs running wild, but now we have children roaming the streets etc...

Yes I own my dog, I own my kid, they are mine, but they are not something I consider property. Kind of like marriage. You are each others spouses, but does that make you each others property?

Just like owning a dog, having child is a gift, a privilege, not a right. We are responsible for them for the rest of their lives. God knows there are days when I would love to sell my dog AND child to the gypsies for a case of beer (kidding... ) but would I ever do it? No. Never. Not even when Lady pushed my brand new air conditioner out of the window and hopped out. Not even when Lady got stuck by a porcupine not once but TWICE in one month, not even when my daughter broke my brand new fan, not even when she colored all over my freshly painted walls with black sharpie marker. (ok this is starting to make me sound like a neglectful mother :p ) l think Festoids here is spewing out dated PETA bull poopie.

[Festoids]

Ad hominem. Telling when one has nothing left to stand upon.

[Alty]

I see where you're coming from Cats. I really do. :)

I think Shazzy said exactly what I wanted to (had to spread the rep), but she did it better. My kids and my dogs are family, and therefore they aren't property, not to me. Maybe they are my property where the rest of the world is concerned, but to me they aren't.

Bella, do you really think you could get a case of beer for both? I think that price may be a bit high on the days you're contemplating it. ;)

Cats and Shazzy. Your dogs get chicken! Spoiled puppies! ;)

[Aurora_Bell]

Ok I'll settle for a six pack and a pack of smokes. ;)

The other day I had an entire moose roast on the counter, went to get the mail, and came back in, no more moose roast...

I know, I didn't set her up for success, just too tempting.

I'm looking at her right now, and my daughter is building a fort with pillows and blankets and Lady is in the middle of all this sleeping soundly. When my daughter stands a little too close, Lady licks her ankle and E shifts over slightly. They have a connection I swear.

[Alty]

Jasper, my rescue mutt, is at this moment laying at my feet and licking my toes. Every time I try to move, he puts his paw on my foot to keep me in place. I guess my foot bath isn't finished. :)

Chewy is sleeping, on my bed, under my brand new blanket, using my pillow! In my next life I want to come back as my dog. Actually, strike that, I want to go to Cats house, his dog gets cooked chicken. ;)

[Aurora_Bell]

I'd like to come back as Shazzy's dogs!

[Catsmine]

l think Festoids here is spewing out dated PETA bull poopie.

Since the discussion started with Henry Berghe, I thought John Locke's definitions of property would fit right in.

I avoid PETA bull whenever I can, so I wouldn't know about that.

Y'know, excon's right, this is fun.

[Festoids]

Have you ever been to an orphanage? Heard of one? It's where kids without parents go. They live there in small rooms, usually as a group, waiting to be adopted. Once you adopt a child, if it breaks the neighbors window, or does something else he/she shouldn't, you, as the parent, are responsible for those actions. Are kids property too? I guess maybe in your world they are.

Really? So if some 15 year old kid breaks into my house and steals one of my guns, then the next day goes into school and kills a couple kids, then that kid's parents should be charged with murder? That is your logic.

On the flipside, you are once again lowering the value of human to that of a dog. Do you truly believe a dog and a human possess equal value?

Are you really that daft? Overpopulation is not caused by shelters, it's cause by over breeding.

Nooo, it's caused by people, the general populace and ACO's bringing animals into the shelter. Sure, animals are going to breed, the animal doesn't willingly walk through the door and into a kennel.

Duh! Use your head for just one minute and think about it. If backyard breeders didn't breed, there would be no animals in the shelters!

What you're saying here is that mixed breed dogs never, ever breed amongst themselves without the assistance or encouragement of backyard breeders? Got it. I think. But I gotsta call bull-dooky on it.

[QUOTE}Legit breeders do not adopt out to anyone that answers an ad. You have to sign a legal document stating that you'll not only spay or neuter your pet, but if you should choose you don't want the responsibility any more, the breeder (a real breeder) will take the dog back. You will never see a dog from a real breeder in a shelter. Ever![/QUOTE]

Got to call bull-dooky on this one. If the purpose of "legitimate breeding" is to:
1. Improve the breed according to breed standards and;
2. Improve the breeds genetic health.
Then a person who is willing to put down anywhere from 4-5 figures for an animal isn't going to want it altered. If they paying that amount for a dog with those traits they are going to want to breed it as well to another dog with those traits.

Now, if a breeder chooses to keep and not kill dogs of inferior standards (that does happen you know), then the breeder will either have the dogs altered before sale or will have the prospective new owners sign a contract stating they will have the dog altered to prevent the traits from being carried forward. On that note, according to your standards, if the breeder is putting out inferior animals along with superior ones, then he's a backyard breeder.

And yes, some breeders will put in the contract that they possess the right of taking the dog back if the owner no longer wants the animal. That clause is not worth the paper it's written on. Once the money passes hands and ownership transfers, the new owner can dump the dog off at the shelter two years later, put a bullet in it's head the next day and bury it and the breeder would never be the wiser and frankly, can't do a thing about it as the buyer has already paid the breeder the full value of the dog.

How many pieces of human property do you have? If you have kids, according to you, they're your property. If they're not, than you should set them free, let them fend for themselves, let them procreate and do as they please.

Humans cannot be property without due process. Refer above to my question about equating the value of humans and animals. Now, where have I stated children are property?

Now, let me make this simple for you. It's my house. It's my rules (and I'm a very laissez-faire father), if you were one of my kids and you can't follow my rules (which are an example of exericising property rights), then there's the door. Consider your clothes a gift. As an example, one of my rules when my kids were younger, do not pull the dogs tail, ears or hit him without valid reason (I determine the validity). If they did, then they were reprimanded. The dog is mine. Not theirs.

Have you ever been in the room when an animal is being euthanized at the shelter? I have, many times. It's a peaceful painless death. Maybe were you live it isn't, but here we have laws against unnecessary cruelty to animals, and the people that care about these animals make sure that they go peacefully.

So you do support cruelty when you determine said cruelty is necessary. Ever ask the dog?

Ever work around a carbon monoxide chamber? Certainly not peaceful. I've also done injections, personally. Sometimes that ain't pretty, no matter who does them. Ever hear a dog vocalize. Kind of ruins your friggin' day. Ever have a co-worker refuse to euthanize animals based upon some moral agenda and it gets put on you day after day?

You really are counting on the human race to do the responsible thing, aren't you?

Of course not. That's why I do.

Take off your rose colored glasses and realize that you're not the only irresponsible person living on this earth, there are billions just like you, which is why we need shelters!

Really? I've never allowed any of my animals to breed (if that's you're definition of irresponsible), I've never knowingly allowed my animals to roam, I've never allowed my animals to become a nuisance to my neighbors, I've kept all of my animals from acquisition to death and I've made it a point, when that time comes to end their lives, I'm the one pulling the trigger. With the exception of my current dog all my animals have been altered.

And you want to call me irresponsible. I'm responsible for my animals. Not yours or any others. When I voluntarily take your dog, say while you go on vacation, you can be rest assured you will get your dog back healthy, in one piece and happy. I'm responsible for your property and it's actions and I will respect your property while in my care.

Breeders I and my mindset approve of? What are you spewing about now? The only thing I require when breeding a dog is that you do the genetic testing to make sure that you're not passing down defects to the puppies, you learn what you have to do to ensure the safety of the mother and the puppies, you have enough knowledge and money to do everything you must to ensure their health, and you make all new owners sign a contract stating that they will not breed their puppy, and if they should wish to relinquish the dog, it goes back to the breeder.

That's not a huge list, and it should be the standard.

Then with those that don't adhere to your standards, well, don't buy from them. Pretty simple, eh? Yet you seem to be the type that would have laws written that would infringe upon the property rights of people at the point of a gun when those people are causing you no harm.

You didn't say sick dog. If a dog is too sick to live, yes, it's put down. That's the humane thing to do. As for aggression, at our shelter we have behavioral experts that work with the dog. If the dog is too far gone, deemed unfit to adopt, that's when he/she is put to sleep. That decision takes months. It's not a one day thing to try to rehabilitate a dog.

No, I didn't write sick dog. That's irrelevant. On the other hand you wrote:

I have never once seen a dog killed immediately upon arrival at our shelter.

Which means either you've:
A. Never seen a very sick or injured dog immediately put down upon entering the shelter, or,
B. You're being dishonest.
And that is relevant.

If you want to take your couch into your yard and shoot it, go ahead. If you want to throw you shoe into the pond, go ahead. If you want to hang your raggedy andy doll in you tree, go for it. Those are all your property. They don't feel anything, they aren't breathing, living beings. What you do with your dog, that's my business, and I will make it my business as long as people like you exist in this world. That's a promise! (emphasis added)

Soooo, if you have a personal problem with me training my dog to hunt animals you're going to interfere? I would love to see you try. You, personally. Not you calling the police.

And using that mindset, if I disagree with how you treat your animals, then you wouldn't mind if I took matters into my own hands and rectified the situation, eh?

You should up your meds. None of the dogs in my care are my property. Having a dog is not a right, it's a privilege! I have never euthanized a dog in "my" shelter. When I say "my" shelter I mean the shelter in my city. I'm the one that hold the dogs head, pets him, cries for him, when the needle goes in. I'm the one that wishes it was legal for me to have more than 3, because every single dog on the list to be killed would be coming home with me. Sadly the laws are such that I'm only allowed 3, and that's how many I have and always will have. When the day comes that I can have more, or I finally win the lottery and buy 30 acres of land, those dogs will be coming to live with me.

Let's talk about how many animals had to be killed to keep Boots around for two years.

My mindset when I work somewhere is the business is mine and it's my job to do my job and be that damn good to keep the place in business and provide excellent customer service. Except when I worked as an ACO. I considered it my job to become unemployed, i.e. no more strays, bites, dangerous/vicious dogs, rabies quarantines and the like. I knew it was idealistic and unachievable, but it's that mindset that drives me. Take it as you will.

You think kids are property too, don't you? Everything you say leads to you owning children as well. Do you have kids? Is one of them a boy? Did you have him circumcised? If you did, did you ask your days old infant if he wanted to skin on his penis cut off, or did you just go for it? If you did, were you at least kind and put him to sleep for the procedure, or did you just let the doctor take a knife and start slicing away while he was fully conscious? Concede the point yet?

Once again, you're making a human equal to an animal. Lettuce answer that question. Are humans equal to a dog?

Go for it. How do I use animals to benefit me? I'm dying to hear this.

Example: That computer your hammering away on. During the molding process of the plastic pieces, to prevent damaging the plastic, the plastic pellets are coated in a very thin layer of animal fat.

Eat meat much?

Take medicines?

If you're a vegetarian/vegan, where does your food originate? And how many animals were displaced, injured, maimed, disfigured and killed during the plowing, tilling, planting, growing, protection, harvesting and storage of that food?

[shazamataz]

Got to call bull-dooky on this one. If the purpose of "legitimate breeding" is to:
1. Improve the breed according to breed standards and;
2. Improve the breeds genetic health.
Then a person who is willing to put down anywhere from 4-5 figures for an animal isn't going to want it altered. If they paying that amount for a dog with those traits they are going to want to breed it as well to another dog with those traits.

Now, if a breeder chooses to keep and not kill dogs of inferior standards (that does happen you know), then the breeder will either have the dogs altered before sale or will have the prospective new owners sign a contract stating they will have the dog altered to prevent the traits from being carried forward. On that note, according to your standards, if the breeder is putting out inferior animals along with superior ones, then he's a backyard breeder.

And yes, some breeders will put in the contract that they possess the right of taking the dog back if the owner no longer wants the animal. That clause is not worth the paper it's written on. Once the money passes hands and ownership transfers, the new owner can dump the dog off at the shelter two years later, put a bullet in it's head the next day and bury it and the breeder would never be the wiser and frankly, can't do a thing about it as the buyer has already paid the breeder the full value of the dog.

Hi Festoid. Please try and do your research properly before posting, the above passage is a complete contradiction to the truth about reputable breeders and why people buy from reputable breeders.

The buyer can take the dog out and shoot it in the head the next day?
Uhh no not quite, don't you think reputable breeders do research into their buyers? They aren't like pet stores, they actually care about who takes the puppies they have put so much hard work and love into. Most reputable breeders also either encourage or require regular updates on the puppy.

[Aurora_Bell]

Nooo, it's caused by people, the general populace and ACO's bringing animals into the shelter. Sure, animals are going to breed, the animal doesn't willingly walk through the door and into a kennel.

I have to agree with you her Fester, it is caused by people, irresponsible pet owners to be exact. And no a dog doesn't willingly walk into a shelter, but weren't you the one wagging your finger at Alty for making dogs equal to humans? Dogs don't have the same thought process as humans, we all know that Fester, but since we (well our ancestors before us) have taken it into their hands to domesticate dogs, it's up to us to take care of them.

[Catsmine]

The buyer can take the dog out and shoot it in the head the next day?

The operative word is "can." Legally they have that right, at least under U.S. contract law. Possibility, not probability. They can drive off a bridge with the puppy so they'll have a dog in the afterlife.

Festoids, you said

Now, if a breeder chooses to keep and not kill dogs of inferior standards (that does happen you know), then the breeder will either have the dogs altered before sale or will have the prospective new owners sign a contract stating they will have the dog altered to prevent the traits from being carried forward. On that note, according to your standards, if the breeder is putting out inferior animals along with superior ones, then he's a backyard breeder.

I'm afraid you got that just exactly backwards. De-sexing animals, or requiring it, with defects makes the breeder responsible.

[Aurora_Bell]

The operative word is "can." Legally they have that right, at least under U.S. contract law. Possibility, not probability. They can drive off a bridge with the puppy so they'll have a dog in the afterlife.

Festoids, you said


I'm afraid you got that just exactly backwards. De-sexing animals, or requiring it, with defects makes the breeder responsible.

The person in question here would be dead, but if they survived would they not be charged for animal cruelty? A woman in the states was just recently charged for making her Dalmatian ride in the trunk of her car.

Also if a person bought a dog, shot it the next day, and this was reported, you want to believe that person would be charged here in Canada. I am talking about a completely healthy animal here.

[Aurora_Bell]

Everyone who wilfully and without lawful excuse, kills or injures dogs, birds or animals that are not cattle and are kept for a lawful purpose, or places poison in such a position that it may easily be consumed by these animals, is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Every one commits an offence who

* wilfully causes or, being the owner, wilfully permits to be caused unnecessary pain, suffering or injury to an animal or a bird;

* by wilful neglect causes damage or injury to animals or birds while they are being driven or conveyed;

* being the owner or the person having the custody or control of a domestic animal or a bird or an animal or a bird wild by nature that is in captivity, abandons it in distress or wilfully neglects or fails to provide suitable and adequate food, water, shelter and care for it;

* in any manner encourages, aids or assists at the fighting or baiting of animals or birds;

* wilfully, without reasonable excuse, administers a poisonous or an injurious drug or substance to a domestic animal or bird or an animal or a bird wild by nature that is kept in captivity or, being the owner of such an animal or a bird, wilfully permits a poisonous or an injurious drug or substance to be administered to it; or

* takes part in any meeting, competition, exhibition, pastime, practice, display or event at or in the course of which captive birds are liberated by hand, trap, contrivance or any other means for the purpose of being shot when they are liberated.


Criminal Law Resources > Animal Cruelty Law (Canada)

[shazamataz]

Hmmm good point Cats... they can, but when going through a reputable breeder anyone wanting a dog just to shoot it in the head wouldn't bother going through all the hoops to get it.

Plus, when the weekly or monthly update from the owner doesn't arrive the breeder is going to contact them, find out the dog is dead and sue their @ss off for breach of contract as well as animal cruelty.