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450donn · Sep 6, 2010, 03:53 PM

When I started my truck for work the other morning one of the stations that my sat radio goes over is Catholic radio. Anyhow while I was waiting for my sat radio to power up I was listening to one of the more famous Catholic prayers. Hail Mary full of grace etc. It got me to thinking, is this not praying to Mary? And if not then how do you justify this as not praying to Mary?

Fr_Chuck · Sep 6, 2010, 04:22 PM

Prayer ? Where would you see a prayer, it is an intersession asking her to go to Jesus for us.
It is merely asking her to pray for us, just as you may ask members of your church to pray for you

So if that is a prayer to her, then you would be praying to members of your church when you ask them to pray for you for things also

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit
Of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of death.

donf · Sep 6, 2010, 04:27 PM

Donn,

I am Catholic and for me, the Hail Mary is both a prayer that honors Mary and asks for Mary's assistance.

AS in:

Hail Mary full of Grace. The Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women. And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen

RickJ · Sep 7, 2010, 05:30 AM

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit
Of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,

All of the above is in the Bible.

Mother of God

If she's the Mother of Jesus, and you believe that Jesus is one of the Persons of God, then Mary must be the Mother of God.

Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of death.

In the Bible we are encouraged to ask others to pray for us.

So the "Hail Mary" is basically from the Bible

dwashbur · Sep 7, 2010, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by RickJ

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit
Of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,

All of the above is in the Bible.

The last line is not.

Mother of God

If she's the Mother of Jesus, and you believe that Jesus is one of the Persons of God, then Mary must be the Mother of God.

Um, no. She's the mother of Jesus. Jesus was/is the human incarnation of the Son, one member of the triune godhead. "Mother of God" implies - nay, says - that she's the mother of the entire godhead. Unless you want to say that Jesus/the Son is the entirety of God, the logic doesn't track.

pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of death.

In the Bible we are encouraged to ask others to pray for us.

So the "Hail Mary" is basically from the Bible

Except for the above caveat, I agree. That one part doesn't track for me, but the rest is quite biblical.

RickJ · Sep 8, 2010, 04:49 AM

I am equating "full of grace" with "holy".

God is one in three persons:
God the Father,
God the Son and
God the Holy Spirit

dwashbur · Sep 8, 2010, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by RickJ

I am equating "full of grace" with "holy".

Okay, thanks for the clarification.

God is one in three persons:
God the Father,
God the Son and
God the Holy Spirit

Agreed.

De Maria · Sep 8, 2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

...

Um, no. She's the mother of Jesus.

Who happens to be God.

Jesus was/is the human incarnation of the Son, one member of the triune godhead. "Mother of God" implies - nay, says - that she's the mother of the entire godhead.

Unless you want to say that Jesus/the Son is the entirety of God, the logic doesn't track.

Except for the above caveat, I agree. That one part doesn't track for me, but the rest is quite biblical.

Here's the logic.

Jesus is God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
Mary is Jesus' mother.

Therefore Mary is the Mother of God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

I hope that helps.

dwashbur · Sep 8, 2010, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

Who happens to be God.

Here's the logic.

Jesus is God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
Mary is Jesus' mother.

Therefore Mary is the Mother of God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

I hope that helps.

I understand the logic. It's just faulty. Jesus is also fully man, therefore there is no reason for Mary to have to be mother of "God," she is simply mother of the human, the catalyst (so to speak) that brought about the hypostatic union. If Jesus were *only* God the Son and had no humanity, then your logic would track. But that's not the case, so it doesn't.

De Maria · Sep 8, 2010, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

I understand the logic. It's just faulty. Jesus is also fully man, therefore there is no reason for Mary to have to be mother of "God," she is simply mother of the human, the catalyst (so to speak) that brought about the hypostatic union.

Where did the hypostatic union occur? Before or after Jesus came out of the womb?

If Jesus were *only* God the Son and had no humanity, then your logic would track. But that's not the case, so it doesn't.

Yes, it does. Did Jesus die on the Cross?

Because if Jesus died on the Cross and Jesus is God. Then it stands to reason that God died on the Cross.

And the same logic applies to His Birth. If Jesus is was born of Mary and Jesus is God, then God was born of Mary.

There you go.

Fr_Chuck · Sep 8, 2010, 06:12 PM

Thus the impossible divide among those not Catholic, they will admit Jesus is God, and Mary is his mother, but it stops there.

kp2171 · Sep 8, 2010, 06:20 PM

Grew up catholic. Do not practice catholicism now. Am christian.

Christs teachings were about tearing down evil social constructs and seeking social justice.

When we have that cleared, then ill spend time on whether "holy mary" is blasphemous or honorary.

dwashbur · Sep 8, 2010, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by De Maria

Where did the hypostatic union occur? Before or after Jesus came out of the womb?

To coin a phrase: Huh? I don't see what that question has to do with it.

Yes, it does. Did Jesus die on the Cross?

Because if Jesus died on the Cross and Jesus is God. Then it stands to reason that God died on the Cross.

And the same logic applies to His Birth. If Jesus is was born of Mary and Jesus is God, then God was born of Mary.

There you go.

Do you deny Jesus' humanity, then? Somehow I find it hard to believe that such a view accurately represents Catholic dogma.

dwashbur · Sep 8, 2010, 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Thus the impossible divide among those not Catholic, they will admit Jesus is God, and Mary is his mother, but it stops there.

Agreed. Though I think you meant "between Catholic and non-Catholic." Correct me if I'm mistaken.

De Maria · Sep 8, 2010, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

To coin a phrase: Huh? I don't see what that question has to do with it.

That's why you don't understand the hypostasis. Jesus was God from the moment He was conceived. God went through the birth canal. God was born of Mary. God sat on Mary's lap. Mary held God in her arms and fed him at her breast. Mary is the Mother of God.

Do you deny Jesus' humanity, then?

The Title, Mother of God, was used to defend the true nature of Jesus, the God man from the Nestorian heresy.

Somehow I find it hard to believe that such a view accurately represents Catholic dogma.

Believe it.

De Maria · Sep 8, 2010, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by dwashbur

Agreed. Though I think you meant "between Catholic and non-Catholic." Correct me if I'm mistaken.

The Orthodox and all the ancient Churches, the Copts and such, all believe that Mary is the Mother of God. It is the late coming Reformers who changed the Gospel of Jesus Christ thus fulfilling the prophecy:

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Athos · Sep 9, 2010, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by De Maria

Because if Jesus died on the Cross and Jesus is God. Then it stands to reason that God died on the Cross.

And the same logic applies to His Birth. If Jesus is was born of Mary and Jesus is God, then God was born of Mary.

There you go.

Therefore, if God the Father is God, then Mary is the mother of her father.

There you go.

De Maria · Sep 9, 2010, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Athos

Therefore, if God the Father is God, then Mary is the mother of her father.

There you go.

On the contrary, Mary is the Mother of God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, whose name is Jesus.

RickJ · Sep 9, 2010, 08:14 AM

Dwash, I know well that the "logic" of the argument is "faulty" to some... but keep in mind that the "Catholic" and "Protestant" view of God as "One in Three Persons" is the same.

99% (loosely speaking) of Christians agree with the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Those who believe it should also agree that it is a "Mystery" that we cannot explain fully in human terms.

... But as far as the "bottom line" goes, we should be in agreement: God is One but/and in 3 "Persons":

The Father (God the Father)
The Son (God the Son), and
The Holy Spirit (God the Spirit).

"He came down from Heaven"

dwashbur · Sep 9, 2010, 09:04 AM

Do you deny Jesus' humanity, then?

The Title, Mother of God, was used to defend the true nature of Jesus, the God man from the Nestorian heresy.

Uh, sure, and Docetism is so much better, because that's what you sound like.