[paraclete]

Biggest trafficking sting in US history |

Apparently 400 Thais found to be illegally working in the US will be allowed to stay if they are found to be victims of human trafficking. So if a person is smuggled across a border with the intention of working they are not victims but if a person enticed with offers of work and forced to work they are?

I would have thought it was apparent that both groups entered the country for the same purpose. Seems very complex and selective

[excon]

Seems very complex and selective

Hello clete:

Yeah... And, until we get an immigration law that actually ADDRESSES the problem, it's going to STAY that way.

excon

[tomder55]

You don't know the difference between slavery and freely working ?

[excon]

You don't know the difference between slavery and freely working ?

Hello again, tom:

IF you're talking to me, sure I do. That's WHY we need a law that addresses the problem. I think I said that.

What's MORE germain to this conversation, however, is WHY your team DOESN'T want an immigration law. Can you explain THAT??

excon

[tomder55]

No I was addressing Clete .

You make another strawman . Of course our side wants an immigration law. We also want existing law enforced. What good is creating new law when the biggest problem is that existing law is not enforced ? Why should I assume that new law created will be enforced ?
I give you the 'Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986' as an example. We were told that if only we gave aliens in the country amnesty ,then in exchange labor laws would be enforced to prevent future waves of illegals coming into the country seeking employment . There were also implicit promises of border enforcement and other controls .

Nothing has changed . We still are in need of secure borders and a rational immigration policy. But now there is a lack of trust. So the way to restore the trust would be to take care of the unresolved broken promises of 20 years ago before we venture into another "path to citizenship" for illegals here .

[paraclete]

You don't know the difference between slavery and freely working ?

No Tom I don't know the difference between making a decision to travel where you might find work and making a decision to travel with an offer of work. I expect in one case there might be complicity of the authorisation process to allow entry. In both situations these people might be working under conditions that are little more than slavery. So if you come because you are lured by the prospect of work and are exploited you can stay and if you come on the expectation of work and are exploited you can't? But if you come because you are lured by the prospect of work and you are not exploited?

Look I know immigration policy is a difficult area, I just don't think sending confused or the wrong message helps

[excon]

Of course our side wants an immigration law. We also want existing law enforced. What good is creating new law when the biggest problem is that existing law is not enforced ? Why should I assume that new law created will be enforced ?

So the way to restore the trust would be to take care of the unresolved broken promises of 20 years ago before we venture into another "path to citizenship" for illegals here .

Hello again, tom:

Ok, but I'll answer anyway...

Existing law isn't being enforced because existing law doesn't work. SOME enforcers realize it, and DON'T enforce the law, while others BLINDLY screw people over in the name of the law no matter what... It's kind of like the pot laws that don't work. You ARE consistent, though. You keep on saying that we need to enforce laws that DON'T work before we can even talk about ones that do.

That isn't a good approach. We need a comprehensive law that works, NOW.

excon

[paraclete]

We need a comprehensive law that works, NOW.

excon

You do know, EX, you are about to be given an opportunity to fix the problem. The solution is in your own hands

[tomder55]

Existing law isn't being enforced because existing law doesn't work.

Hard to make a valid assessment of that claim if enforcement is never tried.

[excon]

You do know, EX, you are about to be given an opportunity to fix the problem. The solution is in your own hands

Hello again, clete:

ABOUT?? We've had the solution in our own hands from the beginning. We just do the wrong things sometimes. Then we pretend the wrong things, were really the RIGHT things, and all we need to do is "crack down" on the wrong things. Somehow, cracking down is going to make a bad law, better.

In terms of immigration, tom is right - kind of. We've continually made immigration laws that DON'T work, so they don't get enforced... It's that simple. It's a cycle that's been repeated over and over again.

Yes, we've said that you can't cross this line in the sand, until you wait in that OTHER line called LEGAL IMMIGRATION. But, that OTHER line takes FIVE YEARS or more to get through, and takes LOTS of money that hungry Mexicans don't have... Then we throw up a help wanted sign, look the other way, and PRETEND that we have an immigration law... 50 years goes by. Family's get started.. Children are born, grow up and start their own family's.. Nobody get's punished - not the employers OR the illegals... Does THAT sound like we have laws that WORK?? Not to me.

Should we be surprised that there are about 12 MILLION of 'em here?? Only if you've kept your head in the sand, and refused to address the situation, saying that "we need to enforce the laws on the books before we talk"...

Enforcing a law that didn't work 20, 30, even 50 years ago, ain't going to make it work now. To think that it WOULD is head in the sand thinking.

excon

[paraclete]

Enforcing a law that didn't work 20, 30, even 50 years ago, ain't gonna make it work now. To think that it WOULD is head in the sand thinking.

excon

Well ex I expect that all can be said is that's what comes of living in a fool's paradise. What's is the point of those lawmakers anyway if what they agree is a load of twoodle that people won't follow

[speechlesstx]

It's called a T-1 visa and it doesn't sound quite as simple as your article makes it out to be.

[paraclete]

It's called a T-1 visa and it doesn't sound quite as simple as your article makes it out to be.

So what you are saying is it doesn't happen very often

[speechlesstx]

so what you are saying is it doesn't happen very often

No, what I'm saying is it's conditional and it's designed to not only protect the victims, but be used as a tool to help prosecute the offenders. I have no problem with it, victims of human trafficking deserve some special considerations in my opinion.

[cdad]

No Tom I don't know the difference between making a decision to travel where you might find work and making a decision to travel with an offer of work. I expect in one case there might be complicity of the authorisation process to allow entry. In both situations these people might be working under conditions that are little more than slavery. So if you come because you are lured by the prospect of work and are exploited you can stay and if you come on the expectation of work and are exploited you can't? But if you come because you are lured by the prospect of work and you are not exploited?

Look I know immigration policy is a difficult area, I just don't think sending confused or the wrong message helps

Here is part of the difference between one and the other types of trafficking.

1) a person give money in exchange for crossing the boarder inorder to gain the possibility of a better life. They live and work freely and make their own choices after that point of crossing the boarder.

2) a person may give a promisary for being smuggled into the country with the promise of a better life. In doing so they have to work off what they owe. Its simaler to indentured slavery. So they work for those that brought them here. Often having to repay food and room and board. They have no choices until paid off. The rate of pay is well under what is standard and the prices charged for room and board are very high. They almost never can climb out past the debt they owe.


As you can see in those examples there are 2 different classes of people involved. And that is where some of the conflict comes in.