[jrussole]

Ditto for southernbell. It is hard letting go. And rejection really hurts. But it is important to date others and move on. And try to find happiness, again.

[chuff]

Good grief. I can’t believe two things.

1. There’s a limit to the number of words I can use.
2. That for two days in a row, I’ve gone past that limit.


Part 1 of 2


Hopefully I’m not wrong on this but for the first time I feel like your starting to get what I’m saying. It sometimes takes a few attempts but your starting to come around. Since you keep coming back I know your at least thinking which is a great sign. Some people just leave thinking were all idiots and then return a month later wondering why nothing changed.

I remember a few months ago we all told some guy that had just been dumped 6 or 7 weeks prior to that to get calling his ex as he was doing up to 5 times a day and couldn’t figure out why she was avoiding him. Anyway he went to a party she was at after being told not too and then came back here after she told him “don’t speak to me anymore” and he still could figure out why. He just didn’t get it.

I think your at least starting to see here that something's not right with your situation and your behaviors. That’s a positive sign. Your also hard headed, a personality trait that hits close to home I must say, so it becomes hard for you to change, or allow yourself to change. Sometimes the hang up is admitting to yourself your wrong. Sometime the hang up is just giving yourself permission to change.

This is the best of what I've heard so far... I'm okay with disrespect! Respect is overrated. I've got a thick skin! I'm willing to accept blame!

Well a couple things. I don’t want you to be disrespected. You shouldn’t want to be disrespected or allow it for that matter. That being said, when I mentioned that in my last post I was trying to convey to you that every time some one criticizes you I felt as though your were deflecting it off and throwing it right back to the person pointing out. I sense you were not happy with what you were hearing and took it as disrespect.

Never and I mean never allow a woman to disrespect you. It’s a sign of weakness and if you do it enough the woman will eventually grow tired and leave you. A woman wants a man, not a wuss. That being said, it doesn’t give you permission to walk all over her and be a complete that starts verbally and physically abusing her. Not saying you ever did by the way.

You were right when you said that this is the first time someone has told me they love me. I won't deny it.

Yeah I could tell. And again I could tell not from knowing you personally but just by studying how human beings behave. If you sort of step back and just watch the most basic human interactions, no matter the race, culture, country, when you step back and just see how people interact and treat one another as humans, and as how humans act, and as how humans treat themselves there are patterns that develop.

I also accept that I'm needy and was needy with her in particular - this is something I've admitted to her, in fact, in trying to make amends.

Well I’m glad that you can admit that to yourself. That’s the first step in changing that behavior. In the future though, you never point that out to a woman. It’s a sign of weakness. Women hate weak guys. It repels them. That being said, by the time the next one comes along maybe you will have worked on yourself and won’t be needy.

I'm not upset with any of you. I wish I could convey the tone of my voice through words, but it's just not possible. I appreciate anything and everything I've heard so far. In speaking to friends, I routinely point out to them that I was likely the during this whole thing and to not assume that I'm the good guy or that the best thing is to treat me like the abused party. One thing I've learned is that, no matter what (as you've just said), your friends will tell you that you've done the right thing and that you're a good person. This is tiresome advice - I'm glad to get a change from that in this place.

Friends mean well but they have an emotional connection to you as well so they don’t’ want to hurt your feelings. They tell you what you want to hear. What you NEED to hear is always what you want to hear.

You know talking about how humans behave, sit back and watch some time someone that has a problem.
I’ll give you a personal example. I worked with a beautiful girl who got completely fixated on another guy that we work with. Prior to this I might add she was in at least one abusive relationship. Her friends and her brother told her time and again to get involved with this guy we work with. She ignored everybody, got involved and wound up getting pregnant. He told her to get rid of it and for about a month all she did was complain to everyone about what an a**hole he was. And he was by the way a real big one. But the problem with that was that everybody told her in advance and she ignored. Then when she was pregnant they all told her he was an a**hole and it wasn’t her fault. Do you see what’s going on here. She was used, no question. But everybody around her, including her own brother are treating her as though she’s the innocent victim, but she was warned time and again not to get involved with him.

So anyway one night she starts her whining to me about him and I just said, “Well this is all your own fault, you got involved with a guy that has a history of treating people like this, and you knew it going in. I don’t blame him at all.” She just stared at me for a minute or so then walked away. On the surface that makes me look like an incredible prick I will admit to you but to you really see what I did. She wanted me to coddle her emotionally like everyone else does. That’s not help. I was the first person to stop and interrupt her pattern of behavior where by she thought she could whine and I would listen and reaffirm to her that she wasn’t wrong.

She came back to me the next day or a couple of days later and we talked about this a little more and I said to her, “I think your willing to risk your own health for all the attention you get that comes with these problems.” Again it helped that I knew her brother so I knew some of this going into this conversation. She said, that I was wrong and so I said, “Well you went out with a guy that abused you for years. What did you do every time he hit you or called you names.” Her answer, “I went to my parents.” You know what happened there don’t you. They told her it wasn’t her fault and gave her lots of attention.

Human behavior leaves clues. Follow the patterns and you get the answers. Look at the species as a whole and not individuals and some traits and behaviors just become crystal clear. Friends and family think there doing right by telling you what you want to hear. Sometimes there wrong. Sometimes, someone has to be the bad guy to be the good guy.

That said, to be told that I could potentially stalk someone is just nuts. I mean... Really? That's so the opposite of who I am that I just don't know how to react.

While I think you have the potential. I’m going to be honest. And to be honest I think I hit on something that you might sort of be aware of but don’t want to accept. I understand it’s hard to look at our own faults sometimes. And you’ve never had these emotions. Your, as you say, confused. But you tell me. Reread that original post. You just don’t quit pursuing her. You don’t take the hints she gives you. What would you have done if she lived in the same city?

I've got rid of all her old stuff she left me, including pictures and what have you. I've lost the letter she left me when she flew out (one talking about how I changed her life, etc etc) and deleted all the sexy pictures she sent me after she'd been in HK for a month.

Yes get rid of all that. It’s only holding you back.

[chuff]

Part 2 of 2. I don't intend for them to be this long but once I start typing it just flows out of me.

I understand what you're saying about the whole fling thing and you're likely correct. I probably put a whole lot more into this than she did (though most of the things I mentioned in my original post were in fact direct quotes from her to me, about 'love of my life' and 'best sex ever' etc - it's quite possible she was lying when she said these things, but she did say them!).

Well, I’m glad your starting to see this. It was a fling, and did put more into than she did. Whether she meant those things I can’t say for sure. But if you were giving her a lot of gifts and paying for trips to NYC she may have told you anything you wanted to hear.

I'll say this, though - my ex is a person who habitually gets close to and then abandons others because she believes that her independence (and being able to travel the world, something most people cannot generally do, especially at our age) is the 100% most important thing in her life. She's had three long distance relationships with men and each of those three times she's ended up dumping them in less than three months, myself being the latest. She has had over 30 boy friends over the years and has dumped them all - it was such that when she started going out with me her dad, jokingly, told her 'oh, great, when you gonna get around to dumping him?' this is why I worry for her.

Sounds like she has a problem with commitment. But you can’t change another persons behavior. You have to either let them live there life. If they want change bad enough then they do it on there own. You can’t do it for them.

She has no frienship with any of the people she's parted from in her short life, virtually no friends from highschool, very few people she keeps in contact from in her childhood. I, on the other hand, am resolute in staying in touch with people I've met over the years, though highschool, elementary school and everything. This next week, as a matter of fact, I'm going off to visit with a friend I haven't seen in over five years and just yesterday visited a friend I haven't seen in almost two years.

Her not having friends isn’t your problem though. You can’t inherit her problems to make it better for her.

Despite everything, I'm okay with being one of the long list of men she's been with and moved on from. She was a good friend and I want her to remain so. You all appear to think that I sit around with my head in my hands plotting how I'm gonna get back into her heart. I'm not blind - it's obvious I won't! I'm not even going to be here when she gets back, though it's well within my power to do so!

I’m only going by what you wrote. That being said, don’t be around when she comes. That is what she is expecting. Show her your, your own man. Show her you aren’t needy. Show her you have things to do.

But my Dad, a guy who I do not generally respect, is a remarkable man in that every single ex girlfriend he has ever had he has ended up becoming a close and dear friend with (despite never getting involved with them romantically after the break up). I would like to emulate this trait, unusual (and apparently freakish) though it maybe. I suppose that restricts what I can accept from you guys (good advice though it may generally be), in that I'm more interested in doing what I can to perpetuate this possibility than anything else.

That’s all well and good but when she doesn’t want to be your friend cut you losses. Friendship is a two way street. If she doesn’t want your friendship that’s her problem. But you can’t continue worrying about it 3 months after you last spoke with her.

What it boils down to is what you've said above, chuffster. She's telling me to get out of her life. I just gotta accept that this is the best way to make her happy, confusing (notice what I mentioned in the title) as that is to me, since supposedly making her happy is what I've been interested in from the start, in a relationship sense. I won't pretend she doesn't exist because that seems ridiculous, but she won't be hearing from me any time soon and I will certainly be looking to move to my next step romantically as soon as the next opportunity presents itself. This has always been the case.

I want you to know that you owe it to yourself to make only you happy. Not her. If you believe anything I tell you please believe this as I went for YEARS trying to be the nice guy and always make the woman happy. That doesn’t work because you lose your own sense of self. You are seen in her eyes as weak because you do whatever she tells you to do at any given time. Women will sometimes test a guy just to see if he puts his foot down or has a spine. It’s a fine line between a test and complaining about a bad day so you have to be prepared and watch for it. Looking back I totally get that now, but I used to just lay down and let them walk all over me, “because if I’m nice they’ll like me more” was the thought I had running through my head. How wrong I was and how many times I got hurt because I was so hard headed that I didn’t ever wake up and realize something else was going on. You can and I do encourage you to be a good person to women but not nice to women if you get my point. The good guy will do something for the woman out of the goodness of his heart, but not at the expense of his heart. Big difference. Be the good guy, not he nice guy.

[LBP]

Hopefully I'm not wrong on this but for the first time I feel like your starting to get what I'm saying. It sometimes takes a few attempts but your starting to come around. Since you keep coming back I know your at least thinking which is a great sign. Some people just leave thinking were all idiots and then return a month later wondering why nothing changed.

Sometimes I think my biggest problem is that I think WAAAY too much.

I remember a few months ago we all told some guy that had just been dumped 6 or 7 weeks prior to that to get calling his ex as he was doing up to 5 times a day and couldn't figure out why she was avoiding him. Anyways he went to a party she was at after being told not too and then came back here after she told him “don't speak to me anymore” and he still could figure out why. He just didn't get it.

Now, this, I never did and I'd be a bit of a fool not recognize my own insanity were this the case. The reason I've mentioned that I think things would still be good were she still around is that we'd actually have a chance to work things out instead of chat about how she's having a marvelous time in Hong Kong and I'm having a not so marvelous time in the States, banter about nothing for a while and then have that be that for a week or more. However, reality is as reality does.

Well a couple things. I don't want you to be disrespected. You shouldn't want to be disrespected or allow it for that matter. That being said, when I mentioned that in my last post I was trying to convey to you that every time some one criticizes you I felt as though your were deflecting it off and throwing it right back to the person pointing out. I sense you were not happy with what you were hearing and took it as disrespect.

Now this is some truly excellent advice. Thank you much.

Well I'm glad that you can admit that to yourself. That's the first step in changing that behavior. In the future though, you never point that out to a woman. It's a sign of weakness. Women hate weak guys. It repels them. That being said, by the time the next one comes along maybe you will have worked on yourself and won't be needy.

I'll give you a personal example. I worked with a beautiful girl who got completely fixated on another guy that we work with. Prior to this I might add she was in at least one abusive relationship. Her friends and her brother told her time and again to get involved with this guy we work with. She ignored everybody, got involved and wound up getting pregnant. He told her to get rid of it and for about a month all she did was complain to everyone about what an a**hole he was. And he was by the way a real big one. But the problem with that was that everybody told her in advance and she ignored. Then when she was pregnant they all told her he was an a**hole and it wasn't her fault. Do you see what's going on here. She was used, no question. But everybody around her, including her own brother are treating her as though she's the innocent victim, but she was warned time and again not to get involved with him.

Women are very strange. Why do they all say that they want a sensitive man when that is actually never the case? Why so many tests?

Heh, your story matches a girl who was my first in college. She started going with me, but dumped me suddenly and unexpectedly for her old boyfriend. That didn't work out, so she started mooning after this other guy in our hall, a guy I knew pretty well and knew well enough to know that he would NEVER EVER treat here like anything other than a place for him to regularly find sex. I told her as much. She stopped talking to me, period. I was okay with that because she was kind of terrible. Sure enough, everything I predicted came to pass and here, three years later, she's been mutated into a pot head and abandoned for new sexual horizons, left to deal with her own misplaced feelings.

While I think you have the potential. I'm going to be honest. And to be honest I think I hit on something that you might sort of be aware of but don't want to accept. I understand it's hard to look at our own faults sometimes. And you've never had these emotions. Your, as you say, confused. But you tell me. Reread that original post. You just don't quit pursuing her. You don't take the hints she gives you. What would you have done if she lived in the same city?

Honestly, I think we'd be as good of friends as we've ever been. I can take no as an answer. That said, her best friend (other than me) is one of my best friends so we'd probably still hang out. And then things wouldn't be confusing because I could see what's going on instead of guessing. I mean, even though I can do it now I still don't call her every day. I don't call her at all. I haven't called her in months!

Well, I'm glad your starting to see this. It was a fling, and did put more into than she did. Whether she meant those things I can't say for sure. But if you were giving her a lot of gifts and paying for trips to NYC she may have told you anything you wanted to hear.

I didn't buy her that trip to NYC - she was all ready planning it before she met me and I happened to have enough to go along. It was a happy convenience. I mentioned her rabid devotion to independence - I only ever bought her one gift because it was such a chore getting her to accept them. Considering how damn wealthy she is, I'd be a fool to do much in terms of giving to her.

That said, the fling comment and also the comment where you said something to the effect of 'Why? She doesn't worry about you' are sobering and worthwhile statements. I'm sure they'll take their time to sink in, but I thank you for that and for all the time and effort you've put into respond to my question. Much appreciated.

I want you to know that you owe it to yourself to make only you happy. Not her. If you believe anything I tell you please believe this as I went for YEARS trying to be the nice guy and always make the woman happy. That doesn't work because you lose your own sense of self. You are seen in her eyes as weak because you do whatever she tells you to do at any given time. Women will sometimes test a guy just to see if he puts his foot down or has a spine. It's a fine line between a test and complaining about a bad day so you have to be prepared and watch for it. Looking back I totally get that now, but I used to just lay down and let them walk all over me, “because if I'm nice they'll like me more” was the thought I had running through my head. How wrong I was and how many times I got hurt because I was so hard headed that I didn't ever wake up and realize something else was going on. You can and I do encourage you to be a good person to women but not nice to women if you get my point. The good guy will do something for the woman out of the goodness of his heart, but not at the expense of his heart. Big difference. Be the good guy, not he nice guy.

It's a funny world, but I guess these are words to live by.

[LBP]

I think I should mention also that low self-esteem is not an insue or a lack of things to do... As I've mentioned, I have a lot of stuff going on in my life, particularly with school, my job and writing... My self-esteem is so high that I have to hold it in check sometimes for getting carried away with pride. This could be part of the problem also...

I mention these things only because they seem to appear often as topics in other threads.

[talaniman]

So you are ready to move on to healthier things?

[LBP]

I guess. I mean, I've been doing a lot with my life, like I said. Mostly I was wondering if it's worth trying to put the effort into keeping her as a friend. The answer appears to be no - that's all up to her. Cool. I'm willing to accept that.

[s_cianci]

Well, you may have thought that things were perfect between you but obviously the feeling wasn't mutual. You need to move on and, as you say, get back into the mix. I know it's not easy but the sooner you can resign yourself to it the better off you'll be. There's evidently some anger and resentment on her part because of things that were said after she indicated that she wanted some space. In any case, you now need to forget about her and move on.

[LBP]

As an update: burned all the stuff (including phone numbers and what have you) I could find of hers, deleted her from all my internet whatevers, deleted all the whatnot that she could possibly be involved with on my computer, and gave her one final phone call to say have a nice life. So that's where it stands. It's about as finished as it can possibly be. Thanks to you all, I reckon. I still don't understand why people can't be friends after a break up, but I suppose that's just the way the world works.

[jrussole]

There are some of us that are able to stay friends with our x's. It depends on the break up. And what can or can't be forgiven by each individual.

[LBP]

As some of you may remember, I came to this board looking for advice on dealing with an ex of mine. It wasn't that significant of a relationship, though both of us blew it up to that proportion (at least I did, and her friends tell me that she did, as did her words to me). We got along great and never had a moment's trouble while she was here.

When she moved away to study abroad, things changed dramatically. We talked once a week for a while, always with great conversations, but then she started to pull away and finally dumped me (after giving me many outs, as I've come to realize).

Months have passed since then and I no longer have romantic feelings for this girl. She treated me with such disrespect that I can't imagine dealing with her ever again in a relationship context without feeling great anxiety and I won't allow myself to get into that position.

Yet, for the time that we were together, she was a great friend to me and I know that people do not always act normally when under emotional stress. I've tried to reach out to her on several occations over a period of months (following NC) to say that while I've come to accept that the relationship is over, and that's positively for the best, I'd still like to keep the friendship. I've been ignored every time.

She once told me, through tears, that she regretted more than anything her inablity to keep friends for long periods - a recurring theme of her life. It's a moment that stuck in my head. I want to put the effort to be her friend because I know she'll need it one day. On the other hand, I'm pretty disgusted with her actions of late mostly because they strike me as entirely unwarranted. It's hard for me to maintain respect for her, but I feel a compulsion to have sympathy, not necessarily for my sake but for hers. She's going to come back here, one day, and I know that most of her old friends will have little to do with her as most of her friends were MY friends and will be that first and foremost, to her expense. I want to make this easy for her but she's making it very difficult for me to do so.

What should I do? I don't feel any turmoil over all this because her opinion of me has grown to mean very little, from my perspective. I have no problem with returning to the well again and again because I feel it's what could help her most. She does not seem to agree in the slightest and has in fact done her best to demonstrate otherwise (including alienating many of those other friends I've mentioned). I don't want to give up on her friendship because I don't want to conscribe her to a possible unhappy future, but she seems determined and I can't convince myself to continue on a seemingly hopeless task. Should I give up and say to hell with it? That strikes me as pretty wimpy. But what other option is there?

[LBP]

I suppose, upon reflection, I've answered my own question with a resounding no. To hell with it - it appears we can't be friend, so I'll leave it at that. I guess textual catharsis really works!

[Sentra]

If she does not care to remain friends at all, then it is her own doing, really. Move her out of your life, that way there is room for someone or something else more worthwhile.

[LBP]

She is out of my life in a very real sense. I burned everything she gave me, deleted her cell number, and took her off my myspace and Facebook and what have you, the whole shebang. I won't be seeing her for years.

I just didn't see any point in wasting time to become friends, as I'm fairly certain she's moved on (though I do know she checks my blog pretty often, for whatever reason) and I know that I have. It doesn't work that way, though.

[Sentra]

What doesn't work what way and why?

[Wildcat21]

No - not worth it.

[LBP]

Moving on quickly. I sort of hate dillydallying and playing all this feigned disinterest BS. I know it's feigned because I know that she checks my blog pretty often, for whatever reason. She's a big believer in 'face' and I'm sure that has something to do with it though I can't say that her actions are particularly unique in what I've encountered during all my female experiences.

[Sentra]

If you have a way of privatizing your blog, do it. If she doesn't want to be friends, she shouldn't have to peek into your life, she does not deserve it. My Myspace page is blocked to those who aren't my friends, I suggest doing the same. And you are right, it is BS!

[Nosnosna]

There's no right answer for whether it's worth it to be friends with an ex. Two of my closest friends are women I was involved with, while at the same time there are a couple that I'm more than content in knowing that I'll probably never see or speak to them again.

There are three things to remember when deciding this:
1) Is it healthy to stay friends? A bad breakup or lingering feelings will make it rough on one or both of you. Better to avoid that sort of thing if you can.
2) Are the two of you friend material? Even without bad feelings or anything like that, relationships change, people change, and sometimes people just don't make good friends.
3) Is the friendship going to be work? A friendship should be natural, and shouldn't require any effort most of the time (the day-to-day care and such aren't effort... they come naturally), and when it does take effort, you know without having to wonder that the effort is worth it.

You've pretty much decided that it's not worth trying here, and from your description, I'd have to agree with you... it doesn't sound like this would be a natural friendship, and there seem to be some lingering issues on both sides that could cause issues.

Stand by your decision, and don't second guess yourself. Don't worry yourself over what she is or might be doing, and just close the door on the part she played in your life.

[Wildcat21]

"She once told me, through tears, that she regretted more than anything her inablity to keep friends for long periods of time - a recurring theme of her life."

Huge red flag in my book.

I have friends from grade school, high school, college. Great friends!