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 Originally Posted by cocopops2311
http://www.konig.org/page6.htm http://www.konig.org/messianic.htm The excerpt below provides a brief explanation about the Jewish celebration during this time of year. Excerpt: Historically, Hanukkah commemorates two events: The triumph of Judaism's spiritual values as embodied in its Torah (symbolized by the Menorah, since the Torah is compared to light) over Hellenistic civilization (considered darkness) which under Antiochus IV, had attempted to culturally assimilate the Jews away from practicing Judaism's commandments, by forcefully installing Greek religious symbols in the Second Temple. The victory of the Jews over the armies of Antiochus IV. The rebellion was begun by Mattathias Maccabee and continued by Judah Maccabee and his other sons. They defeated overwhelming forces, and re-dedicated the Second Temple. The spiritual side of Judaism shies away from commemorating military victories, the Hasmoneans later became corrupt, and civil war between Jews is considered deplorable, so Hanukkah does not formally commemorate either of these historical events. Instead, the festival commemorates the Miracle of the Oil and the positive spiritual aspects about the Temple's re-dedication. In doing so, the oil becomes metaphor for the miraculous survival of the Jewish people through millennia of trials and tribulations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah BTW This celebration doesn't always occur on the month of December. |
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It depends on what you mean by celebrate. The basis of Christmas is a celebration of Jesus Christ as the son of Christ. Jews do not believe that Christ was the Messiah promised in the Old Testament because several of the omens that were to precede the arrival of the Messiah did not happen.
Westernized Jews have elevated Hanukah, relatively minor holiday to give Jewish children something to counter Christmas since it usually comes around the same time of year. Hanukah is a celabration of a miracle that where a lamp filled with one days worth of oil lasted for 8 days. May I inquire why you ask? |
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LOL, it is my impression that Mag was being facetious... maybe not.
Either way I just want to add to your assumptions that all people should be worldly with knowledge of all religions. I am 24 years old, I've lived in Korea and now Afghanistan - but I seriously just learned the big difference between Jews, Christians and Muslims 2 weeks ago. Before that I had no clue that the biggest difference was their different beliefs in Jesus and who he was or wasn't... I was raised mostly christian, very christian extended family, but my own parents were not active in church or teaching me. So I have spent most of my life oblivious of who what when where and why of the bible and religions... As I got older I looked into different religions.While in Korea I read about Buddhist, now here in Afghanistan I have researched Muslim as well as the cultures that go along with these religions. Teacherman your quote "Originally Posted by teacherman Mine is not chauvinistic. Of course I expect, in this day and age, that everyone knows that to Jews, Jesus is not the messiah (not to mention that I think everyone should realize that Jesus is not the messiah)." I wouldn't say chauvinistic but arrogant you are. For you to just expect everyone to know about Jews and what they believe... well that is just outright ridiculous. Judaism is not taught in public schools, millions of people do not go to church or further educational avenues in which to learn about jews or any other religion for that matter. I am an adult, I am guilty of being ignorant of different religious beliefs, yes, but I do not impose on others that they should know all. Your arrogance of expecting others to know things, and calling them silly for asking questions to learn more... well that is rude. You can't expect people to know everything of anything... |
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Originally Posted by s2tp
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Originally Posted by cocopops2311
Jews do not celebrate Christ-mass because they do not believe that Jesus was the Christ. The Judaic festival of Hannukah is celebrated for eight days - the feast and its octave - roughly over the Christmas period, although its actual days of observance change according to the lunar calender. Hannukah is also called the Festival of Lights, and refers to an incident at the dedication of the Second (or Zerubbabel's) Temple when the oil to light the eight branched oil lamp was found to be depleted, but every time the lamps were refreshed with oil, the next day the oil in the storage jar was found to be sufficient to light the lamps (one for every day of the eight day festival). The Second Temple predated Herod's Temple (the one in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus), having been built by the returned exiles from the Babylonian Captivity, and the chief builder being a man by the name of Zerubabbel. The religion of ancient Israel was centred on temples, which they held to be the houses of God and were originally amphictionies, though after the Deuteronomistic reforms only the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem was recognised as a valid heykel. This temple was plundered by the Babylonian Nabopolasser who took the tribes of Judah and Benjamin into captivity around 600 BCE, from which they were released after seven decades by Cyrus of Persia, and permitted as a satrapy to rebuild the walls of the city and rebuild the temple. Herod took that temple down (it was nothing like Solomon's in glory and finery, etc), extended temple mount, and built the biggest and finest of all Temples to be erected on that site. The Jews, who did not like Herod - who did? - would never call it Herod's temple. With the destruction of that temple by the Roman Sylvanus in AD CE, Jews could no longer engage in temple worship, and the focus of what once had been temple service was taken into the home. Jews mourn for their ancient sanctuary, and Hanukkah celebrated the restoration of their temple, so it is a very meaningful occasion for Jews. To say that it has been made for no greater purpose than to make Jewish children feel they are having as much fun as Christian children is to wrest historical facts from their foundations, and to trivialise what is for Jews a highly emotional, festive, and profoundly religious occasion. M:)RGANITE |
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Comments on this post
Morganite disagrees: Given children something to offset Christmas? What a fatuous suggestion. I take it you are not Jewish. Originally Posted by Morganite
MyJewishLearning.com - Holidays: The December Dilemma And then I will accept your apology. |
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Originally Posted by ScottGem
http://www.creni.org/filestore/docum...h/Hanukkah.pdf. The light that burned in the Temple is still an important symbol for Jews and Hanukkah is a festival of light and hope. Here are two stories from the Second World War. Rabbi Hugo Gryn, a leader of the Jewish community in Britain – a man I was personally acquainted with through the United Kingdom Inter Faith Fellowship, to which I was a delegate - wrote this in his memories of the concentration camp during the Second World War as a boy of 14: ‘It was the cold winter of 1944 and although we had nothing like calendars, my father, who was a fellow prisoner there, took me and some of my friends to the corner of the barrack. He announced that it was the eve of Hanukkah, produced a curious shaped bowl, and began to light a wick immersed in his precious, now melted margarine ration. Before he could recite the blessing, I protested at the waste of food. He looked at me, then at the lamp, and finally said,’ You and I have seen that it is possible to live up to three weeks without food. We once lived almost three days without water, but you cannot live properly for three minutes without hope.’ (From: Rabbi Hugo Gryn, Forms of Prayer for Jewish Worship Vol. 111, Prayers for the High Holydays (London: Reform Synagogue of Great Britain), 1985.) Livia Bitton-Jackson, then a girl of 14 tells this story during her time in a forced labour camp in Augsburg in 1944. ‘Mummy kindles her … lights in carved-out potato halves using oil smuggled from the factory and threads from our blanket for wicks… Before lighting them… we post look-outs at each entrance and develop a system of warning signals. A miracle comes to pass. For eight days we delight in kindling lights and singing Hanukkah songs without being caught.’ (From: Livia Bitton-Jackson, I Have Lived a Thousand Years. (London: Pocket Books, 2000), pp 153-154.) What American Jews think of Hanukkah might be different from these European Jews, but not all Jews live in America, and of those that do, not all will dismiss this festival as a trivial matter, artificially boosted to compensate for children not having Christmas. The degree of importance attached to Hanukkah by the individual Jew is dependent on their personal appreciation of it and what it symbolises. Some seem to have lost sight of these. The Encyclopaedia Brittanica cites: Hanukkah reaffirms the ideals of Judaism and commemorates in particular the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the lighting of candles on each day of the festival. Although not mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures, Hanukkah came to be widely celebrated and remains one of the most popular Jewish religious observances. M::RGANITE |
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Originally Posted by ScottGem
The article you cite, which I have read, is but one among several that attempt to make the point you posit, but it is not reliable and there are many more that treat the festival with the gravitas it deserves. The Encyclopaedia Brittanica confirms that: Hanukkah reaffirms the ideals of Judaism and commemorates in particular the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem by the lighting of candles on each day of the festival. Although not mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures, Hanukkah came to be widely celebrated and remains one of the most popular Jewish religious observances. My own sources for Hanukkah and its place in modern Judaism are academic and religious Jews. M:rolleyes:RGANITE |
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Your point? I made the statement "Westernized Jews have elevated Hanukah, relatively minor holiday to give Jewish children something to counter Christmas since it usually comes around the same time of year." You called that statement "fatuous". I referenced a WEB site that supports my statement.
Even one of your own quotes support that statement! "Although not mentioned in the Hebrew Scriptures, Hanukkah came to be widely celebrated and remains one of the most popular Jewish religious observances." We might debate the relative importance of Hanukah or how representative it is of the Jewish spirt. We might debate the reasons Hanukah "came to be widely celebrated". But its clear, from the site I referenced, that some Jews, mostly American Jews, have made Hanukah "one of the most popular Jewish religious observances" at least partially as a counterpoint to Christmas. Doing so, in no way diminishes what Hanukah means or represents. But for you to call my statement "fatuous" was clearly out of line and deserving of an apology. |
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Originally Posted by Morganite
Second, you can denigrate the source I referenced. But that doesn't change the fact that other people support the statement I made. Again, I will state that your Britannica cite actually supports my statement. In fact, nothing you have said or cited denies my statement. The fact is that Hanukah is a minor (but not unimportant) holiday. The fact that its not mentioned in the Scriptures proves that. The fact is that Hanukah has grown in importance and popularity in the last century. I say that a large part of that growth is to give jewish kids a counterpoint to Christmas. In saying that, I have cited published support for that position. I didn't say "all Jews agree with me". But you say my opinion is mistaken without offering any solid proof that it is. In fact, in making the statement that "not all Jews agree with you", you acknowledge that some Jews DO agree with me. And once you acknowledge that, you cannot call my opinion mistaken. All you offer is proof that that Hanukah is a representation of Jewish faith and ideals. I don't dispute that. I offered you proof that "many parents make a perfectly understandable, but incomplete, leap. "Christmas is for Christians. They have Christmas. We are Jewish. We have Hanukkah." In an attempt to substitute something for Christmas, the parent offers Hanukkah." But you refuse to accept that. No, there is no question in my mind that you owe me an apology for your "fatuous" comment. But I can see that your ego won't let you admit you are wrong, even when all the evidence proves it. |
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"Morganite disagrees: A person does not need to be awoman to be a gynacologist."
Giving me a negative rep for this is like a woman telling you she prefers a female gynecolygist and you berating her for her opinion. Did you know that female surgeons can operate on prostate issues as well? Science is like that, all humans all share the information around the world. Sadly religion is far from that. To continue with your analogy: Scott is the doctor and you're the guy who reads about doctors. |
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Morganite disagrees:...
First may I call your attention to the guidelines on using the Comments feature posted here: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/feedba...ure-24951.html The main point of those guidelines is that a negative comment should only be used to correct a point of fact. In your comment on my post, you were attempting to correct a statement of fact. Unfortunately, you were wrong, by your own admission, as well as my proofs that my statement wasn't factual. But in your negative rating of NeedKarma, you clearly abuse the feature. Need was expressing an opinion about siding with my position. You might disagree with him (though you apparently are the only one), but a negative comment was inappropriate. |
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This thread has been sleeping for a while, but I'm catching up. I won't delve into some for the muck being flung, but I have to question a basic statement being made here -- that of Channukah's relative "celebration-ness" especially as compared to Purim. Both are marked by specific mitzvot; both are discussed in the gemara, the Rambam, the SHulchan Aruch etc and both celebrate specific divine intervention and the salvation of the Jews -- physcially in Purim and spiritually in the Channukah story. The channukah story dates to the year 140BCE (approx) and the commemoration of the holiday began a year after the military victory and rededication, thus the holiday precedes Christmas by a sizable margin and was an established practice demanding pirsumei nisa for a while before the winter solstice was coopted into a holiday by others. While the Purim story is a couple of centuries older (I think), both are on the same level in terms of traditions, obligations and importance in practice in Jewish culture.
While I have great respect for ScottGem (he has aided me numerous times over the years) I respectfully disagree in terms of this claim -- Channukah and Purim, two rabbinically established holidays, share equal footing and both have had their coimmunal practice influenced by surrounding cultures over the years, but neither has had its nature undermined nor its importance in the history of the Jews over emphasized. The tern "minor holiday" is not a precise one and the appelation would be denied in terms of both Channukah and Purim but religious Jews. That there is no yom tov involved and the days' status in terms of work is more akin to a weekday is the reason for the label, not as an assessment of its place in the calendar. The website you cite is authored (at least that article) by a Conservative writer who writes very often for a wide audience, especially those who are less connected to Judaism and are more steeped in a culturally modern and less religious framework. He thus expects his audience to be less likely to observe "minor" holidays or be educated about them, but that does not represent the experience base and outlook of Orthodox Judaism (and I got that by reading about him and his books on a variety of sites). |
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Originally Posted by cocopops2311
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