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ceilingtile · Jul 15, 2009, 06:36 PM

My son 17 was charged with theft under 5000 and possession under 5000 for stealing a carton of cigarettes and credit card and used the credit card for $5 . Two weeks later he was at wrong place with friennds who started stealing from cars at mall. He himself did not steal but didn't want to leave friends without ride home so hung around on the lookout and one friend put stolen property in his pocket so he was charged again with theft under 5000 and possession under 5000. Different jurisdictins. Do we need a lawyer or is duty counsel enough to help us in the different court proceedings. Should he plead guilty. Would he be eligible for any type of diversion programs. He was living on his own and ran out of money when both of these crimes took place. He has since moved back home under our supervision. Would this make a difference?

JudyKayTee · Jul 15, 2009, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by ceilingtile

My son 17 was charged with theft under 5000 and possession under 5000 for stealing a carton of cigarettes and credit card and used the credit card for $5 . Two weeks later he was at wrong place with friennds who started stealing from cars at mall. He himself did not steal but didn't want to leave friends without ride home so hung around on the lookout and one friend put stolen property in his pocket so he was charged again with theft under 5000 and possession under 5000. different jurisdictins. do we need a lawyer or is duty counsel enough to help us in the different court proceedings. shoudl he plead guilty. would he be eligible for any type of diversion programs. He was living on his own and ran out of money when both of these crimes took place. He has since moved back home under our supervision. would this make a difference?

If he was the lookout he was involved in the thefts. Of course, he also was in possession of whatever was stolen when arrested. I would NOT use "he didn't want to leave friends without a ride home" as a legal defense!

Are you in Canada?

If so - here is something I wrote:

“Ontario diversion program guidelines vary from region to region, courthouse to Courthouse. Eligibility for such a program is ALWAYS determined by the Crown Attorney’s office. There are no exceptions. You are not required to have legal counsel in order to apply.

If the offense - theft - is not major (property was recovered, not a large amount, not a repeat offender) the Crown Attorney MAY approve eligibility into the diversion program prior to the Court appearance. If there are prior dealings with the Police - and charges do not have to be placed, any prior dealings of a negative nature - the person will most likely not be eligible for the diversion program.

As part of the diversion program the eligible person will have to agree to complete certain tasks or obligations - perhaps watch a video, make a donation or volunteer time to a not-for-profit, write a paper on the crime.

When the tasks/obligations have been competed to the satisfaction of the Crown’s Attorney he/she will recommend to the Judge that the criminal charge (usually, theft) be withdrawn.

Each courthouse in Ontario has a different diversion program and eligibility requirements differ from region to region. Eligibility for the diversion program is always determined by the Crown Attorney's office. If they deem a theft offence to be of a minor nature (usually a small quantity of merchandise was taken and the property was recovered), the Crown may pre-approve eligibility into the diversion program. A person will not generally be eligible for diversion if they have had prior dealings with the police (even if it did not result in a criminal charge being laid). Once in the diversion program, the eligible candidate may be asked to complete one of a number of different tasks. In some jurisdictions, a person charged with theft may be required to watch a video on shoplifting. In other jurisdictions they may be required to make a donation to charity or complete a minimum number of community service hours - or both. Regardless of the requirements, the end result is usually the same. Once the diversion program has been completed to the satisfaction of the Crown Attorney, the Crown will recommend to the court that the criminal charge of theft be withdrawn against the accused person. This will result in the accused person maintaining a clean record (assuming they didn't have a prior criminal record).

If a person is not pre-screened as eligible for the diversion program, a lawyer may be able to convince a Crown Attorney to reconsider their decision.”

ceilingtile · Jul 16, 2009, 06:57 AM

Do we have to apply to the crown before court date to apply for diversion program or do we do that on the court date and ask duty counsel?

JudyKayTee · Jul 16, 2009, 07:09 AM

Quoting myself: "If the offense - theft - is not major (property was recovered, not a large amount, not a repeat offender) the Crown Attorney MAY approve eligibility into the diversion program prior to the Court appearance. If there are prior dealings with the Police - and charges do not have to be placed, any prior dealings of a negative nature - the person will most likely not be eligible for the diversion program."

excon · Jul 16, 2009, 08:35 AM

Hello c:

Diversion is usually reserved for petty crimes. While I see that your son ONLY committed a petty crime, according to you, I see that he's being charged with much more serious offenses.

So, speaking about diversion, when I think his GUILT is the thing you should be speaking of, is verrrrrry premature.

I think you should be speaking about where you can get the best lawyer for him, and how you can minimize his sentence.

excon

ceilingtile · Jul 16, 2009, 04:36 PM

My son was caught stealing - possession under 5000 and theft under 5000. They want to give him a conditional discharge where he is on probation for a year and needs to go for some type of counselling. Could I ask the crown for drug testing also or should I leave it alone. I suspect drugs are involved in his risky behaviour

HelpinHere · Jul 16, 2009, 04:51 PM

If you suspect drugs are involved, and you want the best for your son, demand a drug screening.

Sure, he may be all like "mom u suk" right now, but, if it helps straighten him out in the long run, he'll only love you more for it. Chances are the probation will not change, but the required counseling will be lengthened, and/or a different program added.

Fr_Chuck · Jul 16, 2009, 05:43 PM

He was in possession and you think they should do a drug screen, you want him charged with another crime of drug use also??

Next you don't or can't do anything, except give son advice since I would assume he is a adult

HelpinHere · Jul 16, 2009, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

He was in possession and you think they should do a drug screen, you want him charged with another crime of drug use also ???

Sorry Chuck, didn't read OP clearly, missed possession. Wouldn't they automatically do a drug screening usually if charged with possession anyway?

excon · Jul 16, 2009, 05:57 PM

Hello:

I've been reading... From what I gather, the OP means possession of stolen property, not drugs... But, I can't tell. She mentions nothing more about drugs anywhere.

In either case, I suggest the OP does NOT confuse the probation department with a social agency.

excon

N0help4u · Jul 16, 2009, 06:20 PM

Yeah I think they are saying stolen property not involving drugs in which case the court would not be involved in ordering drug testing.

Fr_Chuck · Jul 16, 2009, 06:27 PM

You are right and I was wrong, guess the question drug, and the word possession, got me off track.

But yes, they already have them on the other charges, giving them a confession on using drugs can only hurt, not help.

Using drugs does not change anything about being guilty, it may be something the lawyer may use latter in sentencing but I doubt that would be good for that either

N0help4u · Jul 16, 2009, 06:29 PM

Good point don't want to get him in more legal problems than he already is in.
Find a way to find answers and get through to him.

HelpinHere · Jul 17, 2009, 12:18 AM

Hmm... well, I was just saying to press the drug charges because, he may think "okay, I can't steal, but they don't care if I'm high... sooooooo...." and he goes and shoots up heroine on the street and dies...

Well, it's unlikely that it will happen in that manner, but you get my point.

ceilingtile · Jul 17, 2009, 10:13 AM

What is a conditional discharge. And how long before this is off my youth record. Will it show up on a police check. They are giving me a discharge with conditions, counselling etc.

ceilingtile · Jul 17, 2009, 10:14 AM

We are from canada; will he be able to travel to the us with this youth record.

ceilingtile · Jul 18, 2009, 12:15 PM

My son will plead guilty to theft under 5000 and they will give him a summary conviction. He is 17. Can he still travel to the united states?

tickle · Jul 18, 2009, 01:44 PM

Will you please give your problem a break, ceilingtile. You were told you can't post like this.

No, I don't think he can travel to the states, he will have to do either probation or community service and has to be WHERE YOU LIVE TO ACCOMPLISH THIS TASK.

ceilingtile · Jan 16, 2010, 01:39 PM

18 year old charged with possession under 5000 for purpose of trafficking and breach of probation. Is he looking at jail. This is in ontario

excon · Jan 16, 2010, 01:42 PM

Hello c:

I would think not. You folks ARE much more enlightened than we are about such things. But, there's really no way to tell.

excon