[bauer09]

in what year was this allowed...





the 2x4 at the top is noticeably bowing (not surprisingly)

any thoughts about best way to remedy?

[creahands]

Hi bauer

Check with building dept. Can tell u when house was built. I would say house was built in/before 1930.

How much work u want to do to correct this? If u change the sash weights to pressure sash weights, u can put a double 2x4 between windows. This will support what u have but will not lift header. After 80 years don't think it is going any wheres.

It appears u have enough room to remove the header and install a double 2x6. Put jack studs inside existing studs and double 2x4 between windows. Will probably have to shim between 2x6 header and top plate on the ends.

I would just change to compression sash weights with support between windows and leave rest alone.

Chuck

[bauer09]

Thanks chuck--

According to property records, house was built in '48 surprisingly enough... thought they would have better sense by then.

Had the same ideas running through my head -- just haven't decided whether I want to pull both windows out and put a real header w/ jack studs in, or just hope to remedy it with a center post... the sash weights, by the way, are from the old windows, they aren't used anymore, whoever put these new windows in just left 'em.

Thanks for the suggestions...

[creahands]

If this set of windows is without header, what do u think the rest of windows are like.

Had a house built in 1904, same problem. By the time u remove window and redo header, u will add at lest 2 more jobs to finishing.

Installing house wrap or tar paper to protect sheathing.

Redoing siding around windows with trim to match existing.

And u should put insulation in that open wall and up date the electric on that wall. Only kick yourself later if u don't.

Chuck

[bauer09]

I'm with you -- which is the reason I'm going to rip the windows out and put a real header in. electrical & insulation were already part of this remodel, just wasn't expecting the header issue.

Other windows don't seem to be bowing down quite as much as this one is... might have something to do with the fact that it's a double window... the single windows are probably the same but the span isn't great enough to create that many problems...

It's the love/hate relationship we have with old homes!

[creahands]

Good luck and have fun. LOL If u need any more help let us know.

If bearing wall be sure to build support wall before u take header out.

Chuck

[manhattan42]

Who says this window doesn't have a 'header'?

It does.

What you are seeing is a variation of a "C" or "Box" header that is made up of the horizontal 2x4s and the solid 1" structural sheathing that gives this type header its rigidity.

Once commonly used, you don't see it very often today, but it is still entirely permissible to use this type header under modern building codes. See and scroll the link below:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...002_par016.htm

So before you make a lot of extra and unnecessary work for yourself, and spend money you don't need to spend, you may wish to consult an architect and your code office for guidance before proceeding.

Personally, I think you are wasting your time and money altering the headers you have in place.

[creahands]

Hi manhattan42

If u look at pictures u will see that there are no jack studs. My suggestion is same as yours, no need to change, just add jack studs on ends and in middle.

I know that my area does not accept this type of header any longer.

Chuck

[manhattan42]

I know that my area does not accept this type of header any longer.

Not true.

"C" headers are still permitted even in New York State.

The only difference is, that a design professional has to spec "C" headers in New York State based on the design load and be approved by the Building Official.

That's not the same as saying they are 'no longer accepted'.

They are.

Here is the text from the 2007 NY State Residential Code that permits alternate construction methods and designs:

"R103.3 Alternate materials, design and methods of construction and equipment.This code is not intended to prevent the use of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved by the code enforcement official or the State Fire Prevention and Building Code Council.

An alternative material, design or method of construction may only be approved when it is determined to comply with the intent of the provisions of this code and be at least equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety."

You can see the entirety of the NY State Residential Code here:

http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/...0v07/index.htm

In other places where the International Residential Code is adopted, it is unnecessary for a design professional to sign-off on these type headers when they are built within the parameters cited by Table R602.7.2 in my previous link.

That said, I don't even see the need to add any jack studs.

These "C" headers appear fine as is.

Only if a structural professional says differently should the original poster do anything to alter his framing.

And I highly doubt one would...

---------------------------------------------------------

Side note:

I got burned by the very argument creahands has been making in a court case many years ago when I, as a builder, went as a professional witness for an plaintiff/owner who was suing a contractor (in part) for not using 'headers' over his windows and doors in an addition quite similar to what you see here.

I came with the Code tables showing the approved spans and sizes for exterior wall headers...

The defendant came with a letter from an engineer... stamped, signed and sealed attesting to the fact that the builder had used "C" headers and based on the load calculations were perfectly acceptable as a design alternative.

Bam.

Case closed.

Defendant won.

It's that simple.

-------------------

Moral of the story:

Just because what you see doesn't appear to be 'normal', does not mean it is not an accepted practice or was never an accepted practice or isn't doing its job structurally.

Nothing in any Code says that headers must be made from built-up 2-bys, lvls, or solid sawn lumber...

Nothing in any Code says that headers must have jack studs.

If the design can support the loads and transfer the loads to the foundation and a design professional says so.

Case closed.

Otherwise, whomever says differently, is just talking through his hard-hat.

[creahands]

The framing has to be accepted by "code enforcement official".
This being your building inspector. On a gable end u may be able to talk to them. Don't think u will be able to use on a bearing wall.

This being said, if on approved plans whether correct or not u have to follow plans or file an amendment.

When looking at your first link, diagram shows jack studs.
I personally would not want to trust nails to hold up 2nd floor.

Chuck

[bauer09]

Manhattan, you're information is interesting, but your posts don't make any sense.

Forget tables, codes, past building practices etc... you said it yourself:

"If the design can support the loads and transfer the loads to the foundation and a design professional says so."

There is nothing about the design of my rough opening that transfers ANY load to anyplace other than directly on top of the old 1-by window frames. If that isn't clear enough, then the fact that the top of the opening was deflected by almost 2" should be evidence of it.


All the literature you cited was in reference to headers in non-load bearing walls. I understand your point, but it is not justifiable in this case... and I find it a bit worry-some that anyone in the building trade could look at this situation and not see the need to remedy it ---- the structure is failing at its intended purpose, and needs to be fixed... which has already taken care of in about 2 hours this morning.


I'm also interested in seeing a successful header design that does not use jack studs...

[bauer09]

You're assumptions about myself, my picture, and this particular house are purely laughable. I'd be wasting my time to go through, line by line, the bad assumptions in your posting.

Instead, I'll go along with your incorrect theory that I do have a c-box header... and according to your site:

Chapter 6 - Wall Construction


a) it shows jack studs, and mentions they are to be used for spans over 4'

b) the table shows for a one-side panel box, with a header depth of 9", and a house width of 24', the maximum span is 4'. I can tell you the "header" I had was not 9" deep, it was barely 6" deep, and the span was 5'


If you are a building inspector, I think you just outlined the reason why most of us in the remodel business don't get permits.

[manhattan42]

Again, another remodeling amateur who has no clue about building or structure or the codes... and who cites the wrong information to justify his wrong positions... then get all bent out of shape when those who do know better correct them.

Just another reason why permits are required and why owners should NEVER HIRE contractors who refuse to pull permits.

[creahands]

Just because a contractor pulls a permit does not mean job will be done right by either the contractor or inspector.

Over my 50 years in business have seen both screw ups. Some contractors can't read prints and build by them. Some inspectors don't know what a print and specs looks like. And if they do, don't know how to get building to look like plans.

As far as Bauer misquoting u, I think u are in error. Have read your code quotes and most of his statements are valid.

Chuck

Chuck

[manhattan42]

"As far as Bauer misquoting u, I think u are in error. Have read your code quotes and most of his statements are valid."

I'm sure you agree with Bauer, which explains why you also gave him such bad structural advice.

Neither one of you understand structure or the Building Code... (even after '50 years' in the business)... and that's quite sad...

The info I gave is factual and correct and can be confirmed at any time by a structural professional... and serves notice to readers that they should NEVER trust information offered on forums like these without getting professional advice from real experts whose credentials and expertise they can confirm.

Ciao`

[bauer09]

Yikes.

Are you married? I bet your wife has learned the old mantra... 'you're right honey, you're always right'.

Some people just have a tough time with being wrong.