[VBNomad]

Why does the USA support Israel? What do we as a county gain from supporting them, when the negatives are so obvious and numerous? Is it political, moral, financial, romantic? Why is the existence of a Jewish homeland still important to America?

[RickJ]

I found tons of articles about this... these two seem like a good place to start:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_199...us_support.php

http://usconservatives.about.com/b/a/255647.htm

[excon]

Hello VB:

We support them because they are a freely elected democracy. We like democracies, don't we? Isn't that what Bush is trying to establish? They're also western, and they're our ally. We should support Israel, because we said we would. Shouldn't we keep our word?

Tell me. What are some of the negatives to you? That the Arabs don't like them? Uhhh, so what? I'm sure the Mexicans didn't like us too much when we took their land. The Indians either. Should we give it back? You live on Indian occupied land, don't you? We put the Indians on reservations, didn't we? If the Indians sent suicide bombers into your city, would you give it back to them?

Maybe you just don't like Jews.

excon

[NeedKarma]

Maybe you just don't like Jews.

excon

Damn it, I hate when anything slightly critical of Israel appears the anti-semitic accusations fly. I'll read Rick's links when I have some free time but I also don't understand the support.

[Fr_Chuck]

A very good pro Jewish website that will help you understand why we need to support them would be

http://www.adl.org/main_Israel/default.htm

And in the end, we need to support them just because they are the enemy of our enemy,

[ScottGem]

The root answer can be summed up in one word GUILT. And Jews do guilt better than anyone else ;)

Seriously, the establishment of the Jewish state of Isreal stems from the guilt of the world at turning a blind eye to the Holocaust while it was happening.

Let me also remind people that the jews did not come into Palestine as conquerors like Americans and Indians. In some cases the Jews bought their way in, but most of the land was actually given or sold to them. And what was sold was generally non arable desert that the Arabs didn't want. The jewish settlers turned this land into workable farmland using modern technology and hard work.

As was also pointed out, Isreal is a democracy, one of the few true democracies in this world. And, as such, deserves our support. It also deserves our support because the only reasons it has enemies is purely irrational religious hatred.

Isreal has earned the alliance and support of America in numerous ways. But the bottomline, is we have signed treaties with them and we should honor them.

[excon]

Hello:

Let me put it this way.

If a new free country was established - ANYWHERE - on this green earth, with democratic principles and free elections, wouldn't you support them with everything you've got?? Isn't that what we, as Americans, are about??

Or, does the question only rear it's ugly head, when we're talking about Jews?

What is it in particular, that has you critical of Israel? Let's get down to it.

excon

[VBNomad]

It's not an anti-semitic thing so leave that dead horse at the door.
Democracies are good. Yes. Support them, don't overthrow them. Good policy.
My aggitation with our support is the way that support manifests. We will not be critical of them no matter how outragous and murderous their behavior. We call ourselves a moral country yet we stand for nothing if we let the murder of innocents pass. And we do. Even the most limp condemnation from the UN we will block. Why? That country would not, could not exist without our generous support. Yet we can not influence them to behave humanely? Our foreign policy is a sham when we choose to be so two faced. We damage ourselves every time we choose to scream about one act of horror and stay quiet about another. I'm not saying abandon Israel to the wolves. I want us to demand our allies meet a higher standard. I want America and it's allies to be respectable. As they behave today; Israel is far from respectable.

[CaptainForest]

It's not an anti-semitic thing so leave that dead horse at the door.
Democracies are good. Yes. Support them, don't overthrow them. Good policy.
My aggitation with our support is the way that support manifests. We will not be critical of them no matter how outragous and murderous their behavior. We call ourselves a moral country yet we stand for nothing if we let the murder of innocents pass. And we do. Even the most limp condemnation from the UN we will block. Why? That country would not, could not exist without our generous support. Yet we can not influence them to behave humanely? Our foreign policy is a sham when we choose to be so two faced. We damage ourselves every time we choose to scream about one act of horror and stay quiet about another. I'm not saying abandon Israel to the wolves. I want us to demand our allies meet a higher standard. I want America and it's allies to be respectable. As they behave today; Israel is far from respectable.

Do not even start with the stupid United Nations.

Why does the US block them?

Here is an idea…b/c of the Muslim majority.

In the stupid way the UN is set up, 1 country, 1 vote, it gives all these small Muslim countries who hate Jews 1 vote each.

Therefore, all the Muslim countries combined have a majority in the general assembly and since they HATE Jews, they always pass resolutions condemning Israel.

As for why the US blocks them? Because they are helping out an ally.

Let me ask you this.

If England wasn’t part of the Security Council and countless resolutions were passed condemning England, would you not want your allies on the Security Council to block them?

[excon]

It's not an anti-Semitic thing so leave that dead horse at the door........no matter how outragous and murderous their behavior. We call ourselves a moral country yet we stand for nothing if we let the murder of innocents pass. And we do......... Israel is far from respectable.

Hello again, VB:

Nahhh, I think it's an anti-Semitic thing... They don't murder... They are moral... They are respectable...

If you believe otherwise, you are an anti-Semite!! Or you don't have a clue what's going on in the world. Me?? I choose to think you're an anti-Semite!

excon

[ordinaryguy]

They don't murder....... They are moral...... They are respectable.........
If you believe otherwise, you are an anti-Semite!!!!

The early zionists used terrorist tactics (bombing civilian targets) to drive the British out, and targeted asassinations are present-day official state policy, recently affirmed by the supreme court, to give just two examples. I know, the palestinians have done the same and worse, so in an "eye for an eye" morality, it's all justified. But you don't have to be an anti-semite to reject that kind of morality. The thing that makes the conflict so intractible is that both sides are absolutely convinced that God is on their side, so compromise is unthinkable. Where compromise is unthinkable, political problems are insoluble and revenge is an engine that never runs out of fuel.

[excon]

Hello ordinary:

Nahh, the Jews are not fanatics. The country is 90% secular. Nope, they're fighting for their very existence - not for God.

excon

PS> Wouldn't WE have been better off, if we had just targeted Saddam? I'll bet 3,000 American family's of dead soldiers think so.

PPS> We're never going to solve this here. YOU say the wall is blue. I say the wall is green. The problem is truthiness. That's when you can no longer find the truth because of the spin.

[ScottGem]

It's not an anti-semitic thing so leave that dead horse at the door.
Democracies are good. Yes. Support them, don't overthrow them. Good policy.
My aggitation with our support is the way that support manifests. We will not be critical of them no matter how outragous and murderous their behavior. We call ourselves a moral country yet we stand for nothing if we let the murder of innocents pass. And we do. Even the most limp condemnation from the UN we will block. Why? That country would not, could not exist without our generous support. Yet we can not influence them to behave humanely? Our foreign policy is a sham when we choose to be so two faced. We damage ourselves every time we choose to scream about one act of horror and stay quiet about another. I'm not saying abandon Israel to the wolves. I want us to demand our allies meet a higher standard. I want America and it's allies to be respectable. As they behave today; Israel is far from respectable.

This assumes that what you say is true. While there is a germ of truth in it, its an extremely biased viewpoint and misrepresents facts as well as makes assumptions that are incorrect and one-sided.

You speak of the murder of innocents. What you fail to take into consideration is that Isreal is under siege. It is surrounded by countries that constantly attack it overtly and covertly. The innocents you speak of were put in harms way by the people killing thousands of Isreali innocents. Lets take the recent Hezbollah conflict. Yes, thousands of innocents died (on both sides). But one of the main reasons for that is that Hezbollah sited their missile launchers and launched their attacks from residential, non-combatant areas. They tried to hide behind these people either for protection or public relations.

Isreal's enemies have continually underestimated their resolve to defend the tiny sliver of land they have been given. Isreal is a small country and their response to such attacks has to be swift, decisive and greater then the attacks to survive as a country. This fact and Isreal's policy was affirmed by the reaction of Hezbollah after the cease fire. At least publicly their leader stated that had he known that Isreal would react so strongly they never would have captured the Isreali soldiers that insitigated the conflict.

You are also incorrect that the US's support of Isreal is total and uncritical. One of the stumbling blocks to peace in the Middle East has been Isreal's reluctance to give up as much as the US has been asking them to. There have also been several times when the US has criticized Isreal for actions that have been over the top.

So you may think you are not being anti-Semitic, but you are. You are spouting the same tired anti-Semitic, anti-Isreal propaganda that its enemies have been using since 1948. Other points of your post that are also inaccurate are your contention that Isreal would not and could not exist without our support. In point of fact, other than our recognition in 1948, the US government did practically nothing to support Isreal's birth. During the 1967 and 1972 wars, our support was minimal and confined mostly to SELLING them material like planes, tanks etc.

So my friend, when you take the anti-Semitic blinders off and look at the true historical facts, you might realize how foolish and prejudiced you have made yourself look.

[ordinaryguy]

Sure, there are lots of ways to justify murder if that's what you want to do. Just don't say "they don't murder". Say "their murdering is justified".

[VBNomad]

You are so right. I am so very, very sorry for ever thinking to question the morallity of the jewish police state. They live in a tough neighborhood so any and all means are justified. And no, America should never, ever ask that it's allies hold to any moral standard. That would imply that we ourselves should behave morally and that won't ever happen. Moral values are great rhetoric for the campaign trails, but you really don't want to have to live that way. Yes, take off the anti-semetitic blinders, and put on the American and it's Allies can do no wrong blinders. Real tight. Don't want any reality leaking through.

[excon]

Hello again, ordinary:

I'm not a justifying kind of guy. I speak English. I love the language. It's so - so, precise! Murder is a legal term. Soldiers don't murder - they kill their enemy.

Israeli's don't MURDER - they kill their enemy. The enemy are combatants - not civilians. Any Israeli targeting killing is against an ENEMY FIGHTER - not civilians. ANY civilians killed by Israel are collateral damage.

MURDER is when a bomber intentionally kills innocent civilians. Palestinians do that ALL the time.

I know you don't understand the distinctions in the language that I'm using. But, you should.

excon

[talaniman]

As was also pointed out, Isreal is a democracy, one of the few true democracies in this world. And, as such, deserves our support. It also deserves our support because the only reasons it has enemies is purely irrational religious hatred.

To me this is the bottom line.

[ScottGem]

You are so right. I am so very, very sorry for ever thinking to question the morallity of the jewish police state. They live in a tough neighborhood so any and all means are justified. And no, America should never, ever ask that it's allies hold to any moral standard. That would imply that we ourselves should behave morally and that won't ever happen. Moral values are great rhetoric for the campain trails, but you really don't want to have to live that way. Yes, take off the anti-semetitic blinders, and put on the American and it's Allies can do no wrong blinders. Real tight. Don't want any reality leaking through.

Your sarcasm is neither appreciated nor warranted. Where did I say that America can do no wrong or that any of its allies including Isreal can do no wrong? Nor did I say that any means was justified.

But you cannot chastise Isreal for the alleged "murder of innocents" until you, at least equally, chastise the Palestinans for the suicide bombings and similar terrorist actions. Or Hezbollah for their acts against Isreal.

You talk about "reality leaking through", but offer such a skewed, one-sided view of things that I question whether you even know what reality is! Several of your statements have been factually and historically incorrect. Other statements have been extremely one sided. I bear no illusions that Isreal has been angelic in protecting itself. Unlike you, I do know the reality. They have, at times, been overly aggressive and done things neither I nor this country have approved of. And they HAVE been criticized and even sanctioned for them. But I'm willing to cut them some slack since they are in a very tenuous position that requires such actions to survive.

[VBNomad]

Please accept my apologies. I was angry. I said some irrational things. Being called anti-Semitic because I question the US's one sided stance towards Israel by several of you made it very difficult to take any of you seriously at all. I regret the attempt at sarcasm. Sorry I offended those who are serious. Have a wonderful holiday season.

[ordinaryguy]

Please accept my appologies. I was angry. I said some irrational things. Being called anti-semetic because I question the US's one sided stance towards Israel by several of you made it very difficult to take any of you seriously at all. I regret the attempt at sarcasm. Sorry I offended those who are serious. Have a wonderful holiday season.

I admire your courage, and I look forward to a similar apology from those who levelled the anti-semitism charge. Equating criticism of the policies and actions of the US and Israeli governments with prejudice against an entire people is completely unwarranted and unjustified.