[drmjw]

I moved away from my condo for work. As I was going to be gone 4 months I wanted to turn off my hot water heater. The valve was frozen and I was advised to replace it with a lever valve, so I hired a contractor who did the job and I left town.

A few days later I started to get emails about a leak in the common drain, coming from my stack. They called in the plumber I had used and he said my condo was dry. More emails as the leak continued and then it was decided that it was decided that my temp/press valve had caused the leak after all, and this because my hot water heater is old (which it is, or was). So, what I'm trying to understand is, how can the installation of a water shut off valve cause the tp relief valve to fail? The plumber said that although the heater was off, cold water was passing my single handle shower valve. The plumber who installed a new hot water heater said that perhaps the plumber opened the tp relief valve and that it never shut properly. Could that be it, because I don't follow how the new valve I had the plumber install caused the tp to fail, though I know it did. And, of course the question is, is this a coincidence that the tp valve failed right after the plumber worked on it. Someone mentioned that the hot water heater was old, but I don't see how that enters into it. Any clarification appreciated.

[Milo Dolezal]

1. Yes, if you manually open T&P valve, it won't (in most cases) close tight, causing a leak
2. T&P valve has to have overflow line that should terminate in floor drain, in a drain before trap, or on the exterior of the house and 6" above the ground. So in case of a T&P leak, water will be directed into drain causing no damage to your house
3. If you had new heater installed, new T&P valve should have been installed with the heater and connected to the overflow line
4. Yes Temperature & Pressure valve could leak when pressurized through single handle faucet

[KISS]

OK, my scenereo:

1. plumber opened the TPR to relieve pressure in the water tank.
2. It's known that once TPR's open, they sometimes fail, especially old ones.
3. The TPR failed.

Comment to Milo's post #4. The single handle faucet is defective if it happens. Seems like we posted within a minute of each other.

[CHayn]

Not to mention that if you turned the water off to the heater but not the gas and did not turn the temp down either the expanding water has no where to go unless you have a thermal expansion tank properly installed. Therefore, as the water heats and expands the TPR valve does its job and opens up.
When you leave for an extended period, turn off all the water and you might as well turn the gas off to your heater as well.

[hkstroud]

A few days later I started to get emails about a leak in the common drain

Could you tell us what that means?

If the newly install valve leaked, and the T&P did not properly seal and the discharged pipe did not properly drain into the drain system, this could be your responsibility. If the "common drain" leaked its not your problem. A drain is not suppose to leak and if it does, it is the association's problem .

Having been associated with a couple of condominium associations and having had interaction with others, I am going to make a generalization. I know it's a generalization and the rest of the world can beat me up if they want too.

Managers of condominium associations don't have a clue as to the physical aspects of buildings. Most of the time they don't understand what they are told and are just looking to get the item off their desk. They are just paper pushers. Maintenance personnel can be qualified individuals or they can be just warm bodies. More often they are just warm bodies.

A good plumber would not have touched the T&P valve. He may have, to relieve the pressure, but right now this just a theory on someone's part. A single leaver valve is a ball valve. As Kiss said, it would have to be defective valve to leak.

It kind of stretches the imagination to have a new, defective ball valve, a T&P valve that doesn't hold and an improperly piped discharge pipe all at the same time. All this, when you are just trying to prevent this very thing from happening.

Furthermore, if the proposed scenario occurred, why wasn't it discovered during the first investigation. Most of the time a leaking T&P valve does just that, it leaks. It does not usually blow off a volume of water and then reset. In this case even if it did open, it would not be a great volume of water. Only enough to re-leave the pressure. It would take some time for the defective ball valve to allow enough water to pass to rebuild the pressure.

Better ask more questions.

The plumber said that although the heater was off, cold water was passing my single handle shower valve.

Do you really mean shower valve? Explain please. Cold water indicated that the gas or electric to the heater was off.

Comment on CHayn post.
The T&P could have conceivably opened once for pressure, but only once, unless the input valve is defective.

[drmjw]

The leak was from the common drain for the hot water heater t&p relief valves in my stack, Harold.
I was told a lot of water was coming out the drain and the Association said I could be held accountable if the water bill went up since it took them some days and back and forth (rather up and down the stack) till they found the leak.

I am not a plumber but am guessing they're saying the shower valve was somehow leaking (though I never had a leak from the shower previously, so don't fully understand this), and the leak blew past the damaged tp valve and out the 'common drain'. Is that a possibility as to what they're saying? And second, since there was never a tp failure, it obviously happened when the plumber changed out my valve, so I could turn off the water to the water heater. (Fwiw, I had the plumber turn throw the circuit breaker to the heater so there'd be no elec or water running to the heater while I was gone.) So the question to me is what caused the tp to fail? Could the leak, if there was one, from the shower have caused the tp to go? Did the plumber do something with the tp? I gather he wouldn't have needed to touch it, given his task was just to replace the water shut off. And if he did touch it, would he have noticed it?

Not even sure what questions to ask at this point, so appreciate the guidance.

Marshall

Does this answer your questions of me?

[hkstroud]

What you have related is a prime example of what I was referring to in my statement about condo management staff. I can't help but form an opinion that what your are being told, went through about three people and was misinterpreted each time.

At this point I can only assume that the "common drain" to which you refer is just a drain pipe put in for the purpose of carrying any water from the water heater T&P blow off pipe to the main plumbing drain. I also assume that it is just a floor drain in a utility closet. If these assumptions are correct, it would be part of the "common elements" or the "limited common elements" by most condominium structure. That is to say, if there is a leak, the association is responsible for the leak and any associated damage. That would seem to be confirmed by the fact that you are being pinged by "If the water bill goes up", not "You may have to pay for the damage". The damage from a leak would be far greater than the cost of the water. I won't express in public, my opinion of a property manager who would make such a statement. Unless the condo association is very small, you wouldn't be able to discern any difference in a monthly bill anyway.

If you left with the breaker to the water heater turn off, your T&P valve could not have released for temperature by the simple fact that there was no heat source. If you left with the newly installed input valve turned off, your T&P valve could not have released because of pressure unless the input valve was defective. Something that is possible, but frankly something I have never seen in a new ball valve.

The T&P valve could have opened or released because of excessive pressure or because it simply failed. If it released because of excessive pressure the input ball valve would have had to be defective also. The excessive pressure would have been the cause, not the defective input valve. The T&P could not have released for pressure unless the input valve was defective. Excessive pressure would be the responsibility of the condominium association. Even with a excessive pressure and a defective input valve, the amount of water loss would have been minuscule.

So you have a leak, a leak large enough to cause discernible, visible damage to some wall or ceiling surface. That leak would have had to be in the main stack or a connection to the main stack, the vertical pipe that serves every unit above the point where the damage was noted. That main stack serves every appliance, in every unit, above where the damage was observed. That is, unless there is a special drain installed to serve utility room floor drains only. Something that is remotely, but only remotely, possible. Still an association problem.

What your shower valve has to do with this comedy of errors, I haven't a clue. Yes, you will have cold water coming out of a single handle shower valve if you turn it to the cold side. Cold water coming out the hot side could indicate a failing water heater input valve or a defective pressure balancing module in the shower valve if one is present.

So where has logic taken us. We have a new, defective input ball valve, a failing T&P valve, a leaking drain pipe, a leak large enough for someone to be concerned about water usage, yet takes several days to find and a shower valve thrown in as a red herring. All at the same time. I'd say we are at Comedy Central.

I stand by my assessment of condominium property managers and their staff of maintenance "engineers."

[drmjw]

I'm going to run this past the 'n, though, as I'm sure you know, I'm not likely to get acknowledgement of much from them unless I threaten. Still, I'll see what comes of the next step and do want to thank you for taking real time and thought on this. If the prop mgr would've sent out another company, rather than the same one that created this mess, I might have more clarity (and honesty) about what really went on. Thanks again, Harold-
Marshall

[hkstroud]

One final thought. I don't see how the association could have a claim for the water usage unless there is some provision in the condominium documents or rules and regulations for "excessive water usage". I don't know where you are located, but in Virginia, state law requires a avenue of "due process" be available to the co-owner in such matters. Don't remember exact wording, been a long time.

For what it's is worth, my prospective and opinions come from being a member of the board most of the time I belonged to one association, and president of the association for several years.