[Triund]

I'm glad we could help. Could you expand on this last part a bit? I'm especially interested in what they meant by "an encounter with Jesus."

Hey Dave, I will try to explain you the word "encounter", but you have to excuse me if this does not click with your definition of encounter;):D.

I know a pastor who shares Jesus with South Asians. He records their testimonies and make DVDs. In those testimonies, people tell their experience about how they became Christians when they were very staunch believers in other faiths and religions. Some said they saw a bright light in their room, some said they heard their names called, some talked to some voice and got the answers which tells us about Jesus and so on. Other than that, I listen to a lot of Christian radio, watch TV and use internet a lot to listen to people's testimonies. There had been lots of cases in Iran, where Islamic priests have visioned Jesus and they left Islam and became Christians. Many people in North America have their testimonies about their life which was in the dark, but they got called and they came to light. On Youtube one can find tons of testimonies. Now if one wants to argue about the authenticity of the truth those people are speaking, I have no proof. However, if they are giving me wrong picture, then they would have no answer when they would be asked by Lord God that who told them to give false testimonies on HIS name. Let God deal with them.

Another thing what I learnt is that in Old Testament, it was Jesus who met with people and talked to them. Feel free to correct me that Angel who would talk to people was Jesus, whereas other angels who carried God's message was not Jesus. I am talking about Angel who wrestled with Jacob, one who was in the burning bush with Moses. (Help me or correct me with more incidences). Looking at the cases in OT and incidences from today`s life, I say people having "encounter with Jesus".

[arcura]

This has been interesting so far but...
If it keeps up it will be going now where.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

I think Triund's original question has been adequately answered. I had mentioned the faith chapter in Hebrews, and others chimed in with similar passages and also the word "faith." Maybe this thread has completed its mission?

[dwashbur]

Hey Dave, I will try to explain you the word "encounter", but you have to excuse me if this does not click with your definition of encounter;):D.

In a context like this, I don't have a definition. I figure he's God and I'm not and he can do what he bloomin' well wants to. I'm interested in stories like these, that's why I asked.

I know a pastor who shares Jesus with South Asians. He records their testimonies and make DVDs. In those testimonies, people tell their experience about how they became Christians when they were very staunch believers in other faiths and religions. Some said they saw a bright light in their room, some said they heard their names called, some talked to some voice and got the answers which tells us about Jesus and so on. Other than that, I listen to a lot of Christian radio, watch TV and use internet a lot to listen to people's testimonies. There had been lots of cases in Iran, where Islamic priests have visioned Jesus and they left Islam and became Christians. Many people in North America have their testimonies about their life which was in the dark, but they got called and they came to light. On Youtube one can find tons of testimonies. Now if one wants to argue about the authenticity of the truth those people are speaking, I have no proof. However, if they are giving me wrong picture, then they would have no answer when they would be asked by Lord God that who told them to give false testimonies on HIS name. Let God deal with them.

Another thing what I learnt is that in Old Testament, it was Jesus who met with people and talked to them. Feel free to correct me that Angel who would talk to people was Jesus, whereas other angels who carried God's message was not Jesus. I am talking about Angel who wrestled with Jacob, one who was in the burning bush with Moses. (Help me or correct me with more incidences). Looking at the cases in OT and incidences from today`s life, I say people having "encounter with Jesus".

Thanks for sharing those. I see now where your question came from. Hopefully it's been answered to your satisfaction :cool:

I have my own story, but that's for another time and another thread.

[arcura]

dwashbur,
Thanks for sharing that.
One of the mist famous encounter was when God (Jesus) and a couple of angels came to visit Abram who became Abraham
Abram has a bullock slaughter and much flower baked into bread for a feast and they ate it ALL.
Since the bible tells us that no one but Jesus has seen the Father any mention of someone seeing God in the O.T. they were seeing Jesus The Word in human form.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[ScottGem]

Yes, I know that feeling. I get it when someone admits to the truth and then turns around and repeats the incorrect info.

[Triund]

dwashbur,
Thanks for sharing that.
One of the mist famous encounter was when God (Jesus) and a couple of angels came to visit Abram who became Abraham
Abram has a bullock slaughter and much flower baked into bread for a feast and they ate it ALL.
Since the bible tells us that no one but Jesus has seen the Father any mention of someone seeing God in the O.T. they were seeing Jesus The Word in human form.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred, thanks a ton for sharing this. God bless you

[Triund]

I think Triund's original question has been adequately answered. I had mentioned the faith chapter in Hebrews, and others chimed in with similar passages and also the word "faith." Maybe this thread has completed its mission?

Thanks for sharing the Hebrew chapter. That was pretty helpful to reaffirm my faith in HIM. God bless you.

I got enough information that help me to see answer to the question. Everyone had been very helpful as usual to help me find answer to my question. God be with you all.

[adam7gur]

dwashbur,
Thanks for sharing that.
One of the mist famous encounter was when God (Jesus) and a couple of angels came to visit Abram who became Abraham
Abram has a bullock slaughter and much flower baked into bread for a feast and they ate it ALL.
Since the bible tells us that no one but Jesus has seen the Father any mention of someone seeing God in the O.T. they were seeing Jesus The Word in human form.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Genesis 19:17 (Complete Jewish Bible) When they had brought them out, he(singular) said, "Flee for your life! Don't look behind you, and don't stop anywhere in the plain, but escape to the hills! Otherwise you will be swept away." 18 Lot said to them(plural), "Please, no, my lord(singular)!
Although they are two they speak as one and Lot replies to them as my lord! Who are those two men, and who is the one left behind to speak with Abraham?
24 Then ADONAI caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S'dom and 'Amora from ADONAI out of the sky. An Adonai (Lord) caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S'dom and 'Amora from an ADONAI out of the sky. A Lord here on earth caused sulfur and fire to fall upon Sodom and Gommorah from a Lord from the heavens. So those two men were not just angels they were the Son and the Holy Spirit incarnated.That brings on the next question!Who was the one talking to Abraham? Could it be the Father? Don't say no too fast! Before you say that no one has seen the Father and lived remember that Moses saw His back.What we can't see is the Father's face and Abraham did not see His face , he just saw the face of a man that he recognized that was God!
So to me it makes more sense saying that the three men going to Abraham were the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in the form of men.And when we see a man we cannot die!

[arcura]

Brother Adam,
I understand what you ate saying and you have no argument with me about that.
There are some who think that the person who went with Lot were angels.
Really I do not know but your thought holds as much water or more than them being angels.
I do think that Jesus did appear at times in the Old Testament.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[dwashbur]

Genesis 19:17 (Complete Jewish Bible) When they had brought them out, he(singular) said, "Flee for your life! Don't look behind you, and don't stop anywhere in the plain, but escape to the hills! Otherwise you will be swept away." 18 Lot said to them(plural), "Please, no, my lord(singular)!
Although they are two they speak as one and Lot replies to them as my lord! Who are those two men, and who is the one left behind to speak with Abraham?

Actually, the vowels indicate "lords," plural. OTOH, in the next verse every time Lot says "you" it's in the singular.

24 Then ADONAI caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S'dom and 'Amora from ADONAI out of the sky. An Adonai (Lord) caused sulfur and fire to rain down upon S'dom and 'Amora from an ADONAI out of the sky. A Lord here on earth caused sulfur and fire to fall upon Sodom and Gommorah from a Lord from the heavens. So those two men were not just angels they were the Son and the Holy Spirit incarnated.

Not really. Lot calls them Adonai, "my lords," whereas the ADONAI in verse 24ff is YHWH, the divine name. There does seem to be a distinction, and the two individuals are more likely angels. Note that in verse 13 one of them says "the LORD has sent us here to destroy it (Sodom)." As far as I know, the Holy Spirit is never recorded as taking any solid form, much less human.

[arcura]

dwashbur,
Thanks much for that.
I do agree.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

dwashbur
Genesis 19:17 When they had brought them out, he said, "Flee for your life! Don't look behind you, and don't stop anywhere in the plain, but escape to the hills! Otherwise you will be swept away." 18 Lot said to them, "Please, no, my lord! Although they are two and the text calls them angels, Lot calls them My lord! And in verse 21 He(the lord) replied... We see Lot talking to a lord and we see a lord talking back to him. I am not convinced that those two angels(messengers) were just angelic beings.I could be wrong but I at the moment doubt that.
Luke 3:22 the Ruach HaKodesh( Holy Spirit) came down on him in physical form like a dove;
Here we see the Holy Spirit taking a solid physical form.
You wrote.. Note that in verse 13 one of them says "the LORD has sent us here to destroy it (Sodom)" meaning if I am not mistaken that since they were sent they could not have been the Son and the Holy Spirit but read this in Isaiah 48:16 "Come close to me, and listen to this: since the beginning I have not spoken in secret, since the time things began to be, I have been there; and now Adonai ELOHIM has sent me and his Spirit. This is clearly The Son speaking and saying that God sent Him and His Spirit.When you send someone on your behalf those people are called messengers which in Greek is aggeloi which in English is angels!
As for this.. Actually, the vowels indicate "lords," plural. OTOH, in the next verse every time Lot says "you" it's in the singular.. I have written..
Although they are two they speak as one and Lot replies to them as my lord! Who are those two men, and who is the one left behind to speak with Abraham? So I really don't see what you are trying to say so please help me out here with that.

[dwashbur]

dwashbur
Genesis 19:17 When they had brought them out, he said, "Flee for your life! Don't look behind you, and don't stop anywhere in the plain, but escape to the hills! Otherwise you will be swept away." 18 Lot said to them, "Please, no, my lord! Although they are two and the text calls them angels, Lot calls them My lord! And in verse 21 He(the lord) replied... We see Lot talking to a lord and we see a lord talking back to him. I am not convinced that those two angels(messengers) were just angelic beings.I could be wrong but I at the moment doubt that.

I already answered this. First, the vowel points indicate "lords" plural. Did you not see that? Second, this expression "my lord" was pretty much the equivalent of "sir," kind of like the German expression "mein Herr." It didn't necessarily have anything to do with THE Lord.

Luke 3:22 the Ruach HaKodesh( Holy Spirit) came down on him in physical form like a dove;
Here we see the Holy Spirit taking a solid physical form.

The parallel in Mark 1:10 indicates that Jesus was the only one who saw it. Likewise for Matt 3:16. The wording of Luke 3:22 suggests the same thing: Jesus was the only one who saw the dove-like appearance of the Holy Spirit as it descended on him. Also, the Greek of the phrase "in bodily form" suggests that it only seemed to have a body like a dove, i.e. "in a bodily appearance" or "in a visible form," which is to say it appeared in a way that he could see, however briefly, so that it was clear what was happening. It's a far cry from the idea that one of the messengers Lot met was the Holy Spirit in human form.

I don't have a serious problem with the idea, I just don't think the text really supports it.

[arcura]

Brother adam,
I am convinced that the beings with Lot were angels.
Also keep in mind what the town people wanted to do with them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

The parallel in Mark 1:10 indicates that Jesus was the only one who saw it. Likewise for Matt 3:16. The wording of Luke 3:22 suggests the same thing: Jesus was the only one who saw the dove-like appearance of the Holy Spirit as it descended on him.

John 1: 32 Then Yochanan( John the baptist) gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit coming down from heaven like a dove, and remaining on him. 33 I myself did not know who he was, but the one who sent me to immerse in water said to me, `The one on whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining, this is the one who immerses in the Ruach HaKodesh.'
It was not only Jesus who saw the Spirit. John saw the Spirit too as it is written Deuteronomy 19:15 at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established .
Please take the time and read this http://aramaicnt.com/files/Abraham%2...%20Trinity.pdf by David Bauscher.
Abraham worships all three men, but if one of them was an angel surely Abraham would have been corrected and instructed not to do so as it happened with John the disciple in the book of Revelation. The three men answer as one in a unity that no angel can participate but only the divine persons of the Godhead.
Genesis 18:20 ADONAI said, "The outcry against S'dom and 'Amora is so great and their sin so serious 21 that I will now go down and see whether their deeds warrant the outcry that has reached me; if not, I will know." But on the next verse.. 22 The men turned away from there and went toward S'dom, but Avraham remained standing before ADONAI. This doesn't make sense,Adonai says that He will go down and see but then He stays back and talks to Abraham while two men go down.Those two men are not just two angelic beings, they are the Presences of God and the Presences of God are always the Son and the Spirit, because where the Presence of God is,there God is!

[adam7gur]

I already answered this. First, the vowel points indicate "lords" plural. Did you not see that? Second, this expression "my lord" was pretty much the equivalent of "sir," kind of like the German expression "mein Herr." It didn't necessarily have anything to do with THE Lord.

Lot calls them Jehovah and not just lord, according to the original text.The scribes changed the Tetragrammaton name of God YHWH to Adonai which means Lord out of respect to God's Holy name so today in many places in the Bible where people referred to the Godhead with the Holy name we see it not written so but instead we see Lord.The Massorete scribes have kept a record, the Massorah in which every change like that is recorded.
The Aramaic text translated in plain English by David Bauscher is very helpful.

[arcura]

Adam7,
Thanks much for that information.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[dwashbur]

Lot calls them Jehovah and not just lord, according to the original text.The scribes changed the Tetragrammaton name of God YHWH to Adonai which means Lord out of respect to God's Holy name so today in many places in the Bible where people referred to the Godhead with the Holy name we see it not written so but instead we see Lord.The Massorete scribes have kept a record, the Massorah in which every change like that is recorded.
The Aramaic text translated in plain English by David Bauscher is very helpful.

You are flat wrong about this. There is nothing in the Masorah about such a change in Gen 19. If you have such a reference, cite it because I'm looking at the Masoretic text, marginal notes and all, and there isn't any.

And the Aramaic text is secondary. The Targums that we have were made somewhere in the intertestamental period, and the manuscripts we have are centuries later than that. We know what the Hebrew text said, and your notion that the text was changed here is way off base.

[adam7gur]

You are flat wrong about this. There is nothing in the Masorah about such a change in Gen 19. If you have such a reference, cite it because I'm looking at the Masoretic text, marginal notes and all, and there isn't any.

Read this on page 38
http://www.isr-messianic.org/downloads/hrv_intro.pdf

Following is a list of these 134 places, according to Gins. Mas, Vol. I, pp. 25, 26, [section] 115:
Ge 18:3,27,30,31,32; 19:18; 20:4;
Ex 4:10,13; 5:22; 15:17; 34:9,9;
Nu 14:17;
Jos 7:8;
Jg 6:15; 13:8;
1 Ki 3:10,15; 22:6;
2 Ki 7:6; 19:23;
Ezr 10:3;
Ne 1:11; 4:14;
Job 28:28;
Ps 2:4; 16:2; 22:30; 30:8; 35:17,22,23; 37:13; 38:9,15.22; 39:7; 40:17; 44:23; 51:15; 54:4; 55:9; 57:9; 59:11; 62:12; 66:18; 68:11,17,19,22,26,32; 73:20; 77:2,7; 78:65; 79:12; 86:3,4,5,8,9,12,15; 89:49,50; 90:1,17; 110:5; 130:2,3,6;
Isa 3:17,18; 4:4; 6:1,8,11; 7:14,20; 8:7; 9:8,17; 10:12; 11:11; 21:6,8,16; 28:2; 29:13; 30:20; 37:24; 38:14,16; 49:14;
La 1:14,15,15; 2:1,2,5,7,18,19,20; 3:31,36,37,58;
Eze 18:25,29; 21:9; 33:17,20;
Da 1:2; 9:3,4,7,9,15,16,17,19,19,19;
Am 5:16; 7:7,8; 9;1;
Mic 1:2;
Zec 9:4;
Mal 1:12,14.