[Triund]

Understanding Trinity had been a challenge for ages and now I have come to the conclusion that comprehension of Trinity surpasses human understanding. However my understanding about Trinty tells me the Jesus is the physical entity of Lord Almighty. Lord God is spirit and HE sends His spirit as Holy Spirit to assist us to grow more in Jesus.

I am struggling to make 2 plus 2 as 4, as we know that Jesus said many times about God as His Father. Then even God said about Jesus when Jesus was being baptised by John the Baptist, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”

Therefore how do I bring together Son of God attribute and physical manifestation of God for Jesus?

[cdad]

Im not quite understanding the question. You said 2 + 2 = 4 and there is no 4 in the trinity. There are only 3. How to reconcile Jesus is that as man he was devine from the beginning. That set him apart from man and also allowed him to inheirit the throne of god. The holy spirit is for the entity inside us all. The spark of god as he is our creator. Jesus came to this earth as devine and to live for the examples that he had preached. Therefore providing a conduit for our salvation. Something before we didn't have. Jesus sits at the right hand of the father and also is the commanding general in the end of times. His role as savior is an integral part of man and God relationships. The holy spirit is the deliverer. The conduit which knowlage and strength of spirit may pass. And God is above all else. And that is the trinity as I know it.

[JoeCanada76]

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[dwashbur]

It's incomprehensible for several reasons. For one thing, God is God and we're not; our creator is likely to be beyond our understanding. For another, we're finite beings, whereas the God described in the Bible isn't. The finite is going to have no end of trouble grasping the infinite.

We do know that the Father is called God, the Son is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God. Yet there's one God. That's as far as I can go with it, but for me it's enough.

[I Newton]

Hello Triund

It is incomprehensible because it is not true, simple as that.

It is simply a false teaching that used to be easy for people to accept because they were kept in the dark as to what the Bible said.

Now that we have access to the Bible without fear of being set on fire, religions have to try very hard to use philosophy to make the false teachings fir in with the Bible.

Trust God, Triund, and trust your own commonsense.

There is a Father and there is a Son and there is a Spirit and all are one in that they work together as one and are one as husband and wife are also one and even the apostles are one.

It is very easy to understand until you try and fit the pagan triune god into the equation

[dwashbur]

"pagan"??

[Moparbyfar]

Yes pagan, as in dating back to the city of Babylon where many false teachings and practices are common today, such as worshipping triads of gods.

[Triund]

Im not quite understanding the question. You said 2 + 2 = 4 and there is no 4 in the trinity. There are only 3. ....

lol... lol... nice joke... And you know I used 2 + 2 = 4 as an analogy. Thanks for your input.

[dwashbur]

Yes pagan, as in dating back to the city of Babylon where many false teachings and practices are common today, such as worshipping triads of gods.

You're joking, right?

[I Newton]

dwashbur

I doubt he is joking. Part of the fun of being a Catholic is we can adopt pagan rituals and images, give them christyian names or meanings and hey presto they are now Christian symbols and rituals, no matter how much God used to detest the rituals or images or teachings.

That is one of the perks of being Catholic; we can do what we like.

[TUT317]

You're joking, right?

Hi Dwashbur,

It is actually true. The trinity as a coherent philosophical/religious idea was the synthesis of three Greek philosophical traditions (there were of course others of the time who contributed to the idea).

Plato and his theory of the forms was an important contributor for many reasons. He was probably the first identity theorist. Identity theory today is still important to the Trinity.

The Stoics talked about dynamic reason to explain how God exists. I think the term 'logos' is still sometimes used today when talking about Jesus/God.

Aristotle's contribution was also very significant, especially his idea of the unmoved mover.

Discovering the origins of a belief has nothing to do with the truth/falsity of that belief.

Regards

Tut

[dwashbur]

Hi Dwashbur,

It is actually true. The trinity as a coherent philosophical/religious idea was the synthesis of three Greek philosophical traditions (there were of course others of the time who contributed to the idea).

Plato and his theory of the forms was an important contributor for many reasons. He was probably the first identity theorist. Identity theory today is still important to the Trinity.

The Stoics talked about dynamic reason to explain how God exists. I think the term 'logos' is still sometimes used today when talking about Jesus/God.

Aristotle's contribution was also very significant, especially his idea of the unmoved mover.

Discovering the origins of a belief has nothing to do with the truth/falsity of that belief.

Regards

Tut

So let's get this straight. The early Israelites knew about this specific Babylonian myth but only adopted part of it, the part where there's one God and he empowers various people by means of his Spirit; from there, the early Christians, none of whom were particularly educated, managed to synthesize Platonian and Aristotelian philosophy, not to mention Seneca and the other stoics, in such a way that it somehow came out a triune God consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh-huh. Sure.

[TUT317]

So let's get this straight. The early Israelites knew about this specific Babylonian myth but only adopted part of it, the part where there's one God and he empowers various people by means of his Spirit; from there, the early Christians, none of whom were particularly educated, managed to synthesize Platonian and Aristotelian philosophy, not to mention Seneca and the other stoics, in such a way that it somehow came out a triune God consisting of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh-huh. Sure.

Sorry D I probably mislead you with the post cut out. I should have been more selective. I really don't know much about Babylonian Gods and what knowledge, if any the early Israelites had of them.

If we are taking about this time then I guess this would have been at least 500 years before Plato. Prior to this there would have been no knowledge of any type of identity theory. Given this, any Babylonian myth would have nothing to do with the Trinity.


Regards

Tut

[JoeT777]

dwashbur

I doubt he is joking. Part of the fun of being a Catholic is we can adopt pagan rituals and images, give them christyian names or meanings and hey presto they are now Christian symbols and rituals, no matter how much God used to detest the rituals or images or teachings.

That is one of the perks of being Catholic; we can do what we like.

Newton;

I'm not laughing either.

This isn’t true; it seems to me that you’re mocking Catholics?

JoeT

[arcura]

Triund,
Try thinking about the trinity this way.
First of all Jesus is the incarnate WORD of God, The word of the Father and the Holy Spirit and therefore eternal as they are.
All three are separate persons in one being of God.
That's very similar to the way you are.
You and all of us are trinities made up of Body, Mind, and Spirit.
All three work together in different ways to make you who you are.
Each as its own functions but works together with the others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[I Newton]

Think of it any way you like Triund, as long as you can get your head around it you will be fine.

There are tons of philosophical discussions you can have to try and squeeze the Triune god into the Bible, but it does not make it so.

In a book with so many words in it it would be amazing if you could not squeeze any idea you like into many parts of it.

My spirit does not speak to my body and my soul does not go for a walk about without my body.

There is a father and a son and a spirit, all three are separate and all three are individual.

The Israelites never considered them to be one and the same and neither did Jesus or the apostles.

Hence the idea was not introduced to Christians for hundreds of years.

Think of it anyway you like Triund, that is the only way you will be able to come to terms with it.

[Moparbyfar]

Quote from a well known religious encyclopedia -
“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”

Quote from The New Encyclopaedia Britannica -
“Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”

Hence the reason why this doctrine is so confusing... it is not a biblical teaching.

Jesus clearly taught that he was the Son of God, not God himself, inferior, not equal to his Father. (Matt 26:39; John 14:28; 1 Cor 15:27,28)
Even after his ascension to heaven, Jesus was seen by Stephen through holy spirit "standing at God's right hand". (Act 7:55,56) This reveals that Jesus did not become God again once in heaven but is a distinct individual to God himself.

That said, Satan is blinding the minds of the unbelievers (2 Cor 4:4), so the trinity doctrine will be here to stay until the end (Matt 24;14), then God will once and for all vindicate his holy name and right all the wrongs on earth, which includes eliminating all false doctrines. (Psa 145:20; Matt 6:9,10) Then there will definitely be no confusion!

*Takes deep breath and prepares for backlash*

[dwashbur]

There's a big difference between saying something wasn't codified in an official fashion until the fourth century, and saying it didn't exist until the fourth century. Jesus himself expounded the idea in the Great Commission when he told his followers to baptize in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; Paul sets it out clearly in his benediction at the end of 2 Corinthians; Peter plainly says that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God in Acts 5; Jesus claims to be God in John 10 - the Jews accuse him of just this and he doesn't contradict them - and the list goes on and on. Thomas calls Jesus "My Lord and My God" and Jesus doesn't correct him. Yes, the doctrine as a doctrine was codified in the fourth century, in response to the Arian controversy. But to try and say it didn't exist before that flies in the face of the evidence.

[Triund]

I have no problem in understanding The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. My understanding for That is very clear and simple. God, Jesus and Holy Spirit are one, can not fit into my finite understanding. May be as the time passes by Lord God would reveal what is the true picture and helps us understand the thing. The reason I was trying to understand it was sometimes people pose the question that if Jesus were God, then who was looking after the universe when Jesus was on the earth.

I am thankful to you all for inputs you give on my questions and doubts. I love this community where people come from different denominations and share their understanding on a topic. This makes a reader to know other perspectives too. This site is a big learning experience.

[Moparbyfar]

Jesus claims to be God in John 10 - the Jews accuse him of just this and he doesn't contradict them -

I don't have the time today to mention all scriptures but singling this one out, John 10:30 - the comment Jesus makes "I and the Father are one" could lead some to think he meant "I and the Father are the same person" but if you look at John 17:21 Jesus prayed for his followers "That they all be one" then in vs 22 added "that they may be one even as we are one." He used the same Greek word (hen) for "one" in all these verses. Jesus disciples did not all become part of the trinity but rather a oneness in unity and purpose as are Jesus and his Father.