[cal823]

Okay, so I have been doing my certificate 3 in Companion Animal Services.
Now, while doing the dog training segment of this course, our attention has been directed to some really disgraceful stuff that goes on in the animal training world.
Now, I am sure you are all familiar with the old style of training, and even the best of today's trainers grew up using the same training method.
In the old days, the accepted method of training a dog involved being the "Alpha" and dominating the dog. Many trainers and people used to do things like tagging the dog (jerking on the lead), hitting dogs, hitting dogs on the nose, yelling at them in a "commanding" voice, etc.
Nowadays, the industry standard code of practice requires a newer, better method, called +R, or Positive Reinforcement. This is because the old method involves hurting the animal, and can cause the animal to become aggressive when it has had enough, and lash out. Positive Reinforcement training has been proven as a far superior method, and it has been shown that old stuff, like tagging, can actually cause sever pain and spinal damage to dogs, as can choke chains.
One the number one people both vets and dog trainers have told me they hate while I have been doing this cause, is Cesar Millan, the so called "Dog Whisperer". He uses a variation on the old outdated dominance methods. Here is a YouTube vid of a news report showing some of the horrible things he does to dogs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpcNOwbRyOE

Other companies to watch out for are ones like bark busters.

Please, please ensure that if you train your dog, or hire a dog trainer, that you/they use Positive Reinforcement. The health and happiness of your pet is dependent on this, as is the safety of your family.

[Unknown008]

Thanks for the info Cal! :) I think this could be stickied to the board.

[cal823]

Thanks Unknown. So many people out there are causing pain and distress to their animals just because they were raised to dominate dogs. Also, I have heard stories of people who have had to clean the blood off the walls in kennels after they tried to emulate Cesar.

[shazamataz]

Caesar Milan is a television actor, he does what pleases the public.


In the beginning he used to physically pinch the dogs neck to get it's attention and distract it.
The public didn't like that.
So that was changed to a 'poke' to the neck.
Still, the public didn't like it, now he doesn't do it at all.

I haven't seen much of his show (an episode here and there plus interviews), but I have seen enough to know I don't want to watch it.

There are a lot of people around who think positive reinforcement doesn't work and that people who use it are "idiot bunny huggers" (what I have been called many times).
People seem to think that because his methods are "old school" and have been around a long time they must work... nope!

Some dogs do require corrections when training yes, but some of the ways he does it are just plain stupid. There are right and wrong ways to correct a dog.

I do partially agree with some things.
You do need to assert dominance over a dog, but I much prefer my method which is basically being the food provider and doing obedience over laying a dog on it's back and holding it there.
I have never done anything overly assertive like that and my dogs sure know who is boss.

I do use corrections in some cases... I am lead training my puppy at the moment and he is so, so naughty. He jumps and spins and pulls on the lead, so what I do is just give the lead a bit of a tug and go "UH-UH!" and he settles down. Then when he is being a good boy and trotting along nicely he gets a treat, so that's both sides, corrective and positive.

For training my dogs to do obedience (sit, stay, beg etc) the ONLY thing I use is positive reinforcement.

[shazamataz]

cal823 agrees : I agree Shazz. You can have the dogs respect and obedience without being horrible to the animal

One of my dogs used to be extremely timid, to the point of wetting herself if someone went near her.
I can't imagine how she would have ended up if Caesar had have taken her and trained, her... she would be an absolute mess.

[Catsmine]

I think you're being a bit alarmist, Cal. In most cases positive reinforcement is vastly superior to older methods, but it is not a panacea. From the one-sidedness of the video (typical) one could get the impression Milan is just a disciplinarian. I do disagree with some of his techniques just as I'm sure he would disagree with some of mine, but shocking and hanging are not all that he does. Unlike some dogs, the issue isn't black and white. I realize I have a bias, as my training methods go into protection as well as obedience. There are times my animals are the only cops around when the bad guys act out.

[shazamataz]

Cats: You also have to wonder how much gets left on the cutting room floor while making the show.

He will string a dog up and then it cuts to the dog being nice and placid... what did he do in between those shots I wonder.

I think the show is terrible and promotes animal cruelty (by wannabe trainers who think his word is gospel)

I'm not saying EVERYTHING he does is bad, just a good portion of it.

[Catsmine]

Cats: You also have to wonder how much gets left on the cutting room floor while making the show.

He will string a dog up and then it cuts to the dog being nice and placid.... what did he do in between those shots I wonder.

I think the show is terrible and promotes animal cruelty (by wannabe trainers who think his word is gospel)

I'm not saying EVERYTHING he does is bad, just a good portion of it.

That's my point. He's not evil, nor are his techniques. Let me also point out that, as television, only the extreme cases are shown. You do make a good point about wannabes thinking that just because he did it in 23 minutes they can have a perfect animal by beating them or hanging them.

[shazamataz]

I'm glad we are basically on the same wavelength on this one Cats, I really value your opinion.

[cal823]

I was not saying Cesar is evil or anything, he just breaks the industry code of practice (well he at least violates the Australian dog training code of practice, not sure what the american code of practice is like)

Another problem I have with him is that he does big shows with audiences full of people with dogs, and tells them all what to do with their dog. You have to determine that with the dogs as individuals, not just tell a whole crowd of people what to do with their pet without even looking at their animals.

[shazamataz]

Yes, every dog is different, what works for mine might not work for someone else, that's why I usually try to provide a few different options for people on here, so they can decide what they think would work best.

[Lucky098]

I don't like pos. Reinforcment training. I can't stand clicker training drives me crazy

[Catsmine]

I don't like pos. Reinforcment training. I can't stand clicker training drives me crazy

You have to find what works for you and THAT dog, not the previous one, not the next one.

[EmoPrincess]

My dad beats them with pipes

[EmoPrincess]

Steel pipes... or boards... or hammers... or axe handles... or bladed spatulas

[Alty]

I know you all will most likely disagree with me (which is fine) but I love Cesar Millan. I've never seen a show where he is abusive to dogs and I've watched almost all of his shows.

I use a combination, Assertive dominance (that doesn't mean hurting the dog, it means asserting myself as leader) and positive reinforcement, along with other methods. Lucky, I hate the clicker method too. It doesn't work and it's annoying as hell. ;)

I don't subscribe to one particular way to train but I do mainly use Cesars methods because they work and I'm not hurting my dog.

Cesar actually hates choker chains and only uses them because that's what the owners have on hand. He's actually manufactured a collar that is both humane and works. I'd buy one, but because I have to order it online, and can't fit it to my dog, I won't buy it.

There is a lot of controversy when training a dog. Everyone has a different opinion. I think it's up the owner and the dog. What works for one won't work for another. As long as the dog is not being hurt, is being treated humanely, I don't have a problem with it. I only go off on the people that hit their dogs or rub their dogs noses in their pee or poo in order to train them. I do not condone violence or abuse of any kind.

As long as you're not hurting the dog, beating the dog, or harming the dog, most methods are equally acceptable.

I would never hurt any animal in my care, I think you all know me well enough to know that. Having said that. I would not support Cesars methods if I thought for a minute that he hurt animals.

Just my opinion.

[Aurora_Bell]

I've used Bark Busters, and it was completely positive reinforcement.

[Aurora_Bell]

Too much politics in obedience, I'm staying out of this one.

[Catsmine]

Do you guys ever watch this girl? I find it a better show than "Dog Whisperer" although not quite as dramatic.

Victoria Stilwell, Dog Training, It's Me Or The Dog : Animal Planet

[Aurora_Bell]

Yea I like that show. She seems pretty good. I've only seen a few episodes, but one of them was about a little malti poo who wouldn't let the woman's husband near her. It was kind of funny.