[ScottGem]

Further developments:
Besides the part of the lease I already referenced, they also cited an addendum that says in part:

"in the event you fail to timely establish utilities and services...we may charge you for any utilities and services billed to us with respect to your apartment..."

Did you sign the lease with that addendum in it? If so, then I doubt if you have a case. With that addendum, you should have inquired immediately if you were not billed. So that clause will, in all likelihood, put the onus back on you.

[dwashbur]

Scott,
Yes, we did. That's why I tried the finagle about who actually promised to make the change, even though I know it's probably a tad lame.

Excon,
I'm willing to let the deposit go if it will get this off my back. From what I've seen of this outfit, they would bend over backward to keep as much of it as they could anyway, and I figured going into this lease that the deposit $$ was probably throw-away money. My attitude right now is, if they don't sue, I won't. Whaddaya think?

[ScottGem]

If you signed that lease with that clause, you are on very thin ice. What is in writing always trumps a verbal commitment. I really don't see any way that a court won't hold you responsible for the utility bill.

I agree, if they don't sue, you don't.

[dwashbur]

How about if they can't decide what the amount is? The interim manager hand-delivered a letter from their lawyer yesterday - quite literally pounded on the door and brought a maintenance guy along, apparently thinking we might get violent or something - that said the amount was $621.56. We walked down to the office a little later and, making sure we were as polite as humanly possible, requested a copy of the utility bill in detail. I picked it up from them a little while ago. It includes a copy of that same letter, except that the amount in this copy is $587.08. I went through the bill and added up the charges for the months in question and got an answer that doesn't match either of these figures.

Is there anything in that little mess that I can use to our advantage?

[ScottGem]

No, If you are sued, you both present your calculations to the court and the court will pick one.

If you propose to without going to court, then you have to show your figures and negotiate the actual payment.

[dwashbur]

I talked with the management's lawyer today. She told me that the following paragraph in the lease precludes the estoppel idea. What do you guys think? Here it is:

MISCELLANEOUS. Neither we nor any of our representatives have made any oral promises, representations, or agreements. This Lease Contract is the entire agreement between you and us. Our representatives (including management personnel, employees, and agents) have no authority to waive, amend, or terminate this Lease Contract or any part of it, unless in writing, and no authority to make promises, representations, or agreements that impose security duties or other obligations on us or our representatives unless in writing. No action or omission of our representative will be considered a waiver of any subsequent violation, default, or time or place of performance. Our not enforcing or belatedly enforcing written-notice requirements, rental due dates, acceleration, liens, or other rights isn't a waiver under any circumstances. Except when notice or demand is required by statute, you waive any notice and demand for performance from us if you default. Written notice to or from our managers constitutes notice to or from us. Any person giving a notice under this Lease Contract should retain a copy of the memo, letter or fax that was given. Fax signatures are binding. All notices must be signed. Notices may not be given by email.

Exercising one remedy won't constitute an election or waiver of other remedies. Unless prohibited by law or the respective insurance policies, insurance subrogation is waived by all parties. All remedies are cumulative. No employee, agent, or management company is personally liable for any of our contractual, statutory, or other obligations merely by virtue of acting on our behalf. This Lease Contract binds subsequent owners. Neither an invalid clause nor the omission of initials on any page invalidates this Lease Contract. All notices and documents may be in English and, at our option, in any language that you read or speak. All provisions regarding our non-liability and non-duty apply to our employees, agents, and management companies. This Lease Contract is subordinate or superior to existing and future recorded mortgages, at lender's option. All lease obligations must be performed in the county where the apartment is located.

WAIVER OF JURY TRIAL. To minimize legal expenses and, to the extent allowed by law, you and we agree that a trial of any lawsuit based on statute common law, and/or related to this Lease Contract shall be to a judge and not a jury.

I'm not totally sure what part she's talking about; the legalese gets a little thick at this point. But I think it's the stuff in the first paragraph. Is she correct?

[ScottGem]

Pretty much!

[dwashbur]

Oh well. I guess I know what's happened; in fact, I can use one of my favorite Sidney Sheldon lines. This guy has just scammed some big shots, but he did it in a way that was absolutely legal. A lawyer tells one of the guys (I paraphrase):

"In the legal parlance of one of my colleagues, you've been royally screwed."

I will definitely read the next lease I'm presented very, veeeery carefully.

[excon]

Hello again, d:

If you hadn't given me a reddie, I'd help you beat them, still. But, you did. Now, if you want my help, you've got to do some groveling, and you might have to send money. I don't know. It depends on how well you grovel.

excon

[dwashbur]

Hello again, d:

If you hadn't given me a reddie, I'd help you beat them, still. But, you did. Now, if you want my help, you've got to do some groveling, and you might have to send money. I dunno. It depends on how well you grovel.

excon

*bows down, licks boots* *smiles real big* Did I ever tell you you have very nice eyes? *kneel and plead* what else you want?

I'm still figuring out how this site works, and couldn't find anything in the TOS that explained the agree/disagree thing. Major apologies!! Is there a way to retract it?

[dwashbur]

One thing their lawyer did suggest to me was talking to an outfit called something like the Housing Justice Protection. I'm going to try to do that tomorrow, time permitting.

[excon]

I talked with the management's lawyer today. She told me that the following paragraph in the lease precludes the estoppel idea. What do you guys think? Is she correct

Hello d:

Yeah... I had this page of ALL green going on, and then you had to come along and spoil it. Dude! Well, it's not the first reddie I've gotten, and it won't be the last. At least you didn't do it maliciously.

The lady lawyer is correct, in that, she defended her client, and got you to run away. That's her job and she did it well. Whether she's correct on the LAW or not, remains to be determined. That would be, of course, IF you have the balls to take them to court for your deposit. They'll counter sue for the bill and it'll be game on.

In my view, you have NOTHING to lose by suing them and EVERYTHING to gain.

excon

PS> This is what she says your agreement means, "Our not enforcing or belatedly enforcing written-notice requirements, rental due dates, acceleration, liens, or other rights isn't a waiver under any circumstances."

The LAW, however, says something else. You'll find that law under estoppel

[dwashbur]

Ex,
I didn't even know what a "reddie" or a "greenie" was until you pointed out my error; what little information I've been able to find on that system is buried so deep it took me nearly an hour to find out what it's all about. It would be good if there was a simple explanation of the rep system for new folks like me to find BEFORE we make a mistake like I did. Anyway...

I'm interested in checking out the law you're talking about; still, as I said before, I always consider such deposits throw-aways, and if I can get out of this losing nothing more than that, I'll be satisfied. But the estoppel thing really has me curious. Where might I start looking for more info?

Thanks! (both for the info and for forgiveness... )

[excon]

I'm interested in checking out the law you're talking about; still, as I said before, I always consider such deposits throw-aways,

Hello again, d:

I'm going to forward your post to the people who can DO something about it.

In terms of your situation, you need to understand some stuff. At THIS point in time, the LAW has LITTLE to DO with it. THIS is the time for INTIMIDATION. So far, it's YOU whose been intimidated. Certainly, if they know you're going to lay down for your deposit, they KNOW you're going to lay down for this bill.

Now, I don't know how the law is going to square with the language in their contract. YOU don't either, and you've admitted as much... And, I promise you, if you read up on estoppel, you're going to be even MORE confused.. Does the lady attorney KNOW what she said is the LAW?? NO, she doesn't. Is a judge who you're going to be in front of know the law? Maybe and maybe not. That's why they have appeals.

Part and parcel of the intimidation process, is making the apartment complex THINK that their very expensive attorney is going to cost them a lot more than the few hundred they're owed. The only was they are going to consider such an idea is if they know you're going to fight them every step of the way - and you don't have an expensive attorney on retainer...

So, don't throw away one nickel of the money that you're entitled to.

excon

[dwashbur]

Okay, I'm with you so far. I suppose I should set out my basic philosophy of such things.

For me, it's not so much about winning as about doing what's most expedient for my family. If I can get the deposit back, well and good. If I can twist some nasty people's whatchamacallits in the process, even better. But I'm 56 years old, my wife of 30 years has just had surgery and is still in a lot of pain, and I'm sitting here trying to evaluate the best use of my time and energy as it regards this whole thing.

The other thing is, several years ago I had an epiphany of sorts: it's just money. In the Grand Scheme Of Things, frankly not that important. I view money like I view a lot of other things: it's a tool, a means to an end. That end is my family. As I said, I've been married to the same woman for 30 years, and have been privileged to raise three incredible kids. My goal in most everything I do is not only to serve them as best I can, but to build memories for myself and for them while we can. Money, jobs, all that stuff, are tools for doing those things. And when it comes to money, I sort of hold it very loosely, because there's always a way to get more. (I credit Bernie Rhodenbarr with this last insight, which is probably more than a little kinky.)

At the same time, if I can get the deposit back without gobbling up too much of the time and energy that I have left on this earth, that's good, too. So my goal here is to balance one versus the other, and try to decide which approach is best going to serve my primary goal in life.

I hope that clears up my view. Frankly, because of that approach, I'm not intimidated in the least. Because in the long run, these people can't hurt me. And letting that deposit go would be a non-event for me. Getting it back would allow me to get some new scuba equipment :D so I'm open to that idea.

Will I be hearing from whoever you forwarded the post to, then? I'm also wondering what I should do in the meantime. The lease is up the end of April, and I'm probably going to give notice today. I was more or less planning to go suggest that they wait for the deposit once we move out, but decline to commit anything along those lines to writing. Offer it by innuendo, so to speak. But here's what the lawyer letter said: we have until the end of today to pay up, and if we don't, the "landlord" will issue a 10 day notice to comply or vacate which could lead to eviction. Now, I know that eviction is a long, involved process and we could really jerk them around during that time. But I'm thinking I probably don't want something like that on our record, so what do you think of my little stalling tactic?

[excon]

Hello again, d:

Couple things. I'm only talking about writing a few letters. To me, it's worth a couple hours to save a couple grand. I'm not into making trouble just for the sake of making trouble.

I think I mentioned a strategy for your departure earlier.. Nonetheless, screw their eviction threat. You'll be gone LONG before a hearing can be held making that procedure moot. You'll probably be filing in that same court for your deposit back, or you'll be countersuing them. In any case, the eviction will NEVER happen.

excon

PS> Nahh. If they fix the FAQ or whatever to make the reddie/greenie thing more understandable, that's going to happen or not. I'm sure they're not going to let ME know, and I'm sure they're not going to let YOU know.

Nope. I'm stuck with the reddie forever.

[dwashbur]

Another glaring omission on my part. The refundable part of my deposit is only $400. That's why I'm not going ballistic about the idea of losing it. And the electric bill thing is $587. If I could get them to settle for the deposit and get this stupid thing over with, I'd be satisfied.

So, because of the absurdly-long process of the eviction thing, you think I should just let them dangle? I do need to give proper move-out notice, but should I discuss this thing at all when I do? Or just hand them a sealed envelope with the "we're moving out at the end of our lease" letter and leave?

I wonder if the programmers and powers-that-be could be convinced to add a little "What's this?" link to the agree/disagree box? That would make life much simpler for dodos like me.

The "D" is for Dave, by the way.

[excon]

I think I mentioned a strategy for your departure earlier..

Hello again, d:

Apparently, I didn't. You've done enough talking about THIS situation for the time being. They KNOW you're not satisfied.. But, before you take it to the next level, deal with your move out. Yes, give them written notice, sent CERTIFIED. Clean the place immaculately. Arrange for a walkthrough with your landlord by certified mail, and when you meet them there, take pictures. When you vacate, send a demand letter to the landlord regarding your deposit. In Washington, he has 14 days to return it OR an explanation of why it wasn't returned.

Only then will you know who owes who what. IF they sue you for this bill before you actually vacate, that's the court where you'll countersue for your deposit. Make sure all your rent is paid, so that the issue is strictly the electric bill and NOT rent. The eviction court is as good as any court to have your complaints heard.

Not knowing how much time is left on your lease, I can't say one hearing would occur before another. Certainly, if you ARE sued for eviction, you'll have a chance to explain to the judge in your answer that you're already leaving, and you're asking for a continuance until the security deposit issue becomes clear. You'll get it.

excon

[twinkiedooter]

If you are evicted you will be charged the court filing fees and the attorney's fees for their attorney to show up. Keep that in mind that this could amount to several hundred dollars.

Also, if they do serve you with the eviction there will be a hearing scheduled which can be either 1 week or 2 weeks away depending on how backed up the court docket is. Then when you are in front of the Judge he may decide to have you ejected immediately or give you 10 days in which to leave the premises.

In any event, an eviction is NOT a long, drawn out process as you think it is. It is a relatively quick court proceeding that can take about a month to happen.

You're confusing a loan foreclosure on a house which can take months and months to happen. An eviction can be pretty quick since they can accelerate it due to you not paying the electric bill. If they went down to the courthouse Monday, they could technically file the eviction suit.

[excon]

Also, if they do serve you with the eviction there will be a hearing scheduled which can be either 1 week or 2 weeks away depending on how backed up the court docket is. Then when you are in front of the Judge he may decide to have you ejected immediately or give you 10 days in which to leave the premises.

Hello twink:

As usual, we don't disagree - much...

Whenever the hearing is, the OP will have filed his answer, and it's a good a time as any to have the issue adjudicated. Should the OP lose, and he certainly might, he'll have the opportunity to pay, and the eviction will be dismissed. Although the court COULD assess attorney's fees, in this instance, I doubt they would. Those would only be assessed if the OP's claim was frivolous, and I don't believe it is.

On the other hand, the judge could throw him out on his ear. There ain't no guarantees when you put these folks in charge of your life.

excon