[450donn]

paraclete,
Sorry, but The Church believe the entire bible not bits and pieces as you claim.
That is why I became a Catholic. I formerly believed as you do.
I know better now.
Fred

Sorry Fred, but you are simply going around in circles. You claim to believe in the whole bible, but yet you claim to NOT believe in the rapture. So which is it? The bible, or the teachings of the RCC as the current pope chooses to interpret it?
You NEVER believed as I do! If you had you would know and follow Christ instead of the pope

[arcura]

NeedKarma,
Thanks for the clarification.
You are correct.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[belovedgift]

I believe there is a great deal of missinformation about these things. The great tribulation is not confirmed as a 7 year event anywhere in scripture. Furthermore the great tribulation should not be confused with the great day of gods wrath. Matt 24:21 jesus describes a length of time for tribulation and in yhe next verse proclaims a shorting of that time for the sake of the elect. Tribulation is translated from two greek words which literally mean birth pangs. Think of tribulation like contractions during labor and it becomes evident that tribulation against the people of god has in a steady manner go on from exactly the time jesus said it would,the beginning of sorrows,progressively getting stronger in nature even in this present day. We here in the United States seem to be unaware of this things going on world wide,and giving to assumtion that tribulation is for a latter date. The reality is people of God are being murded at the same rate as the days of the early apostles yet on a global scale. The wrath of God is decscribed as beginning with the opening of the sixth seal in rev. 6:12-17 and matt. 24:29-31. Hope this helps

[arcura]

belovedgift ,
Thanks much for that.
Yes, Christianity is under fire in many places including in the USA.
In that respect one can say that the tribulations are at work right now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[dwashbur]

I have yet to see anybody consider the kind of literature we're dealing with in both Revelation and Daniel. Both are apocalyptic, which means they're both pretty much symbolic through and through. That's the big problem I have with the whole Left Behind thing: it insists on taking everything literally, when NONE of it was ever meant to be taken that way.

As for the rapture, let's clarify our terms. There are a handful of views on it. The one popularized in the (hideously-written) Left Behind books is the pre-trib rapture. There's also post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, and symbolic. The pre-trib idea doesn't hold water, especially in the Left Behind way, because Titus 2:13 in the Greek makes it clear that the "blessed hope" and the "glorious appearing" are the same event. The mid-trib and pre-wrath are really just variants of the same idea: I can't be pre but I don't want to be post. The symbolic view seems to be contradicted by the most famous rapture passage, 1 Thess 4:13ff which does not seem to be symbolism or metaphor. That only leaves one option, and that's where I come down. "Literal interpretation" has done as much to damage the cause of Christianity in the US as anything else, in my somewhat arrogant opinion.

As for the original question, go back to what I said about the literary style of Revelation. I don't see any specific "tribulation" period of 7 years or any other stretch of years. My own view is that all that stuff is symbolic of what's been happening ever since Jesus' ascension, and will continue to happen until he comes back.

Obviously, YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).

[jakester]

We've been living in the tribulations for over 2,000 years.

Yeah, I think that is true. Look at all of the things that have transpired over the last 100 years alone... if the Holocaust and two World Wars aren't enough to be considered tribulation, I don't know what is.

[arcura]

I do very much agree.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

yeah, I think that is true. Look at all of the things that have transpired over the last 100 years alone...if the Holocaust and two World Wars aren't enough to be considered tribulation, I don't know what is.

Jake, While I usually agree with your thinking, on this subject I have to disagree.
The things you spoke of are foretold in scriptures as being wars and rumors of wars. The Word is very clear that the tribulation period is 7 years. It is divided in half. The first half or 3-1/2 years will be relative peace, the second half is when the plagues of the great tribulation period will be unleashed. At the end of this period is when the battle of Armageddon takes place and Jesus comes back to judge all.
The books of Daniel and Revelation are two books that are not taught very often in churches today. That is a sad thing. As we approach the end of times it is vitally important that we understand the things that are to come lest we miss them. I understand that certain religions do not accept the teachings on the last days because it does not fit into their liturgy, and that is also sad. They are going to miss one of the greatest events the earth has ever known while waiting for the return of our Lord and Savior. To those that disagree with me, that's fine. Maybe you should get some teaching on the subject from several sources outside of your religious circle first and then decide for yourselves.

[dwashbur]

Jake, While I usually agree with your thinking, on this subject I have to disagree.
The things you spoke of are foretold in scriptures as being wars and rumors of wars. The Word is very clear that the tribulation period is 7 years. It is divided in half. The first half or 3-1/2 years will be relative peace, the second half is when the plagues of the great tribulation period will be unleashed. At the end of this period is when the battle of Armageddon takes place and Jesus comes back to judge all.
The books of Daniel and Revelation are two books that are not taught very often in churches today. That is a sad thing. As we approach the end of times it is vitally important that we understand the things that are to come lest we miss them. I understand that certain religions do not accept the teachings on the last days because it does not fit into their liturgy, and that is also sad. They are going to miss one of the greatest events the earth has ever known while waiting for the return of our Lord and Savior. To those that disagree with me, that's fine. Maybe you should get some teaching on the subject from several sources outside of your religious circle first and then decide for yourselves.

This last sentence is, pardon me, laughable. Why do you assume that anybody who disagrees with you just needs to "get some teaching"? Just FYI, I started with your point of view, and could argue it with the best of them. Unfortunately, I got "some teaching" about the nature of apocalyptic literature and proper exegetical method, and had to chuck the whole "literal interpretation" bit. It has nothing to do with "liturgy" as I don't have one. Maybe we're not the ones who need to "get some teaching."

How do you answer the point that apocalyptic literature was never intended to be taken literally?

[450donn]

How do you answer the point that apocalyptic literature was never intended to be taken literally?

Please explain where you get that comment?
I suspect by your comments that you are another RCC convert or someone who just plane does not want to accept that the end times are not yet upon us and that the things spoken about in Revelation are actually going to happen.

[dwashbur]

Please explain where you get that comment?
I suspect by your comments that you are another RCC convert or someone who just plane does not want to accept that the end times are not yet upon us and that the things spoken about in Revelation are actually going to happen.

Are you for real?

Any decent book on exegesis or Bible interpretation will tell you about apocalyptic literature.

"another RCC convert." You have no idea how funny that really is.

Oh yeah, and "plane" is something that flies through the air, or a technical term for a flat surface. "Just plane does not want" makes no sense.

[JoeT777]

The statement put before us was prefaced with the statement, “tribulations are coming someday.” Someday could be tomorrow, someday could be millions of years from now. The OP continues asking, whether there will be floods, war, and petulance over the entire world? Most Protestant or Evangelical answered essentially, ’yes’. And it seems that the reason why is that God will reign his Justice down on the world. At the same time on other threads, the argument is ‘your salvation Is secured, bought and paid for by the Passion of Christ. Consequently, “Be a sinner and sin stoutly, but trust in Christ much more firmly” and rest assured of your salvation that no matter the sin it will not tear you from Christ, even should you be a whoremonger or a murder thousand times a day.

Why then should God, judge the earth (which he created and found ‘good’) and now finding it evil want to destroy it, raining tribulation on everybody, even those who ‘believe’. Is God so contrary that he would pick this one to ‘rupture’ and this one to leave behind? At the same time saying to us to simply ‘believe' and I’ll guarantee your salvation? God is just, so doesn't justice demand that the good servant be rewarded? Doesn’t make much sense does it? Doesn’t God know that we now have Obama's “share the wealth” now and therefore He should share the holy salvation - what's the need of justice? And still, if he was going to warn us, why didn’t he make it perfectly clear when the age or the day would be here? Why did he tell John Darby and not Peter, or Paul, or Thomas, or any of the Twelve? Have you got a clue?

We do know that to believe is all we need so let’s believe in John Darby’s eschatological theology for a minute and see where it gets us. Darby told us that there are multiple 2nd comings of Christ. Extensions of this theory require 3 to 5 returns of Christ – all of which are ‘sola Scriptura’. But Scripture doesn’t mention multiple ‘second comings’ of Christ. Where in scripture does it talk about the 3rd or 4th “Second coming of Christ”? Of course there are multiple ‘clairvoyant’ versions of how this will happen. We’ve got pre-tribers, post-tribers, anti-tribers, premillenialsits, amillenialists, millenialist, postmillennialists, and dispensationalist. If the Bible “interprets itself,” how then do we discern the multiple theories of “self-evident” scriptural truth – of course all of which are guided by the Spirit?

And, when will the 2nd coming of Christ be? No one knows! (Matt 24:36) However, we do know it will be on the “last day” (John 6:25, 39; John 12:48; John 11:24). Not a multiple number of last days but the last "last day". Scriptures don’t say the last day just before the last day, or the last period before the last day. Scripture says Christ's return will be on “THE LAST DAY.” Well, for sure, I don’t want to be left behind; or do I?

We do know the 2nd coming will be like the days of Noah, they (the bad guys) will be making marry up till the last day (Matt 24:36-38). In Noah’s day it was those making marry until “the flood came and took them all away.” (Matt 24:39). So, it was bad guys who were taken up in Matthew’s gospel. A real contradiction left by Darby- and LaHay, they want to "take up" the good guys? Well, for sure, I don’t want to be left behind; or do I?


JoeT

[450donn]

Are you for real?

Any decent book on exegesis or Bible interpretation will tell you about apocalyptic literature.

"another RCC convert." You have no idea how funny that really is.

Oh yeah, and "plane" is something that flies through the air, or a technical term for a flat surface. "Just plane does not want" makes no sense.

Book by WHO? Smart mouth!

[dwashbur]

Wow.

[arcura]

450donn,
Please. Just where in Scripture is this 7 year period that you speak of.
I'd like to see it.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

Fred, Revelation 12 VS 1-6 talk about the last half when it is speaking about the 1260 days. Earlier in Revelation there is another mention about 1260 days. Which is the first half of the tribulation. This time is when Satan fools the world by making a treaty with Israel which of course is broken at the end of the first 1260 days. I am real busy this weekend, being Resurrection Sunday and all so I will have to get back to you on the reference to the first half.

[galveston]

The "trigger" for the Great Tribulation (not tribulations in general) will be either the Rapture or the signing of the treaty between the Anti Christ and Israel. The two events wll likely be very close together.

To all of you who do not believe there will be a rapture, I have some questions.

1. Do you believe that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his letters?

2. Do you believe in the resurrection of the just?

1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

In 2 verses Paul tells us that the resurrection of the just and the changing of the living to be called up to Jesus are similtaneous.

It seems to me if you deny the rapture, you have to deny the resurrection also.

[dwashbur]

The "trigger" for the Great Tribulation (not tribulations in general) will be either the Rapture or the signing of the treaty between the Anti Christ and Israel. The two events wll likely be very close together.

To all of you who do not believe there will be a rapture, I have some questions.

1. Do you believe that Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his letters?

2. Do you believe in the resurrection of the just?

1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

In 2 verses Paul tells us that the resurrection of the just and the changing of the living to be called up to Jesus are similtaneous.

It seems to me if you deny the rapture, you have to deny the resurrection also.

For one thing, I don't know of too many people who deny the idea of A rapture, myself included. The question is when it happens in relation to other events. So to accuse me or anybody else who has spoken up here of "deny[ing] the rapture" is erroneous, not to say a misrepresentation. The 1 Thessalonians passage says nothing about WHEN this happens in relation to other events, so that does nothing to support your pre-tribulational view.

As I already pointed out, Titus 2:13 indicates that the "blessed hope," which dispensationalists equate with the rapture, and the "glorious appearing" are the same event. It sounds to me like some people have been reading too much Tim LaHaye and not enough George Ladd. My web site has a review of LaHaye's Are We Living In the End Times? which is his companion book/justification for the whole Left Behind thing. I suggest you check it out.

[dwashbur]

Book by WHO? Smart mouth!

You could start with this one:

William W. Klein, Craig L. Blomberg, and Robert L. Hubbard, Jr. Introduction to Biblical Interpretation. Dallas: Word, 1993.

[galveston]

For one thing, I don't know of too many people who deny the idea of A rapture, myself included. The question is when it happens in relation to other events. So to accuse me or anybody else who has spoken up here of "deny[ing] the rapture" is erroneous, not to say a misrepresentation. The 1 Thessalonians passage says nothing about WHEN this happens in relation to other events, so that does nothing to support your pre-tribulational view.

As I already pointed out, Titus 2:13 indicates that the "blessed hope," which dispensationalists equate with the rapture, and the "glorious appearing" are the same event. It sounds to me like some people have been reading too much Tim LaHaye and not enough George Ladd. My web site has a review of LaHaye's Are We Living In the End Times? which is his companion book/justification for the whole Left Behind thing. I suggest you check it out.

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(KJV)

I think the "and" indicates that these may NOT be the same thing.

It's not likely that Paul would contridict himself on the subject. He wrote very specifically to the Thessalonians on the subject.


II Th 2:3-8
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(KJV)

I'm sure you know that "let" means hinder.
Verses 3 & 4 clearly describe Anit-Christ, and someone/something hinders his coming to power.

What could that be?
Not human government.
The Holy Spirit? How?
In this dispensation, the Holy Spirit works through believers, and the Church is made up of believers.

If it is NOT the Church that holds back Anti Christ, then what/who do you suggest does so?

If it IS the Church, then the Church must be absent before Anti Christ can come to power.

What other agency do you suggest now holds back the full expression of evil in this world, and how and when do you expect it to be gone?