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tacmedic7248 · Mar 5, 2010, 08:26 AM

I've searched around and think I have a rough idea of what I need to do, but I need someone to clarify a few things for me.

I want to install a ceiling fan in a room I'm redoing and I have no knowledge of electrical work except on cars. Yes, I will remember to turn the power off before I do anything! :) It's a small room with three outlets and one wall switch. This switch controls the outlet on the same wall it's located on. I understand I have to get a ceiling fan brace for the fan and can install it with no problems since this room is below the attic.

Here's where my question is... I run wiring from the ceiling fan to the light switch or the outlet? If I run it to the light switch, to I hook it into the switch or am I cutting and splicing wires to make it look like a neat mess?

That's where my confusion lies and I greatly appreciate all the assistance! Thank you in advance!

hkstroud · Mar 5, 2010, 05:35 PM

Information needed.

Are both halves of the outlet controlled by the switch or is just one half controlled by the switch and the other half always hot.

Is this a 15 or 20 amp circuit?

Remove the outlet and tell us how many and what kind of cables are in the box. A wire is a wire, a cable is two or more wires in an outer covering.

Which would be easier, getting a cable down the wall to the outlet or getting a wire down the wall to the switch?

tacmedic7248 · Mar 5, 2010, 08:17 PM

Thanks for the reply! The entire outlet is controlled by the switch on a 20AMP circuit. It's BX, not Romex, there's one white, one black, one bare. As far as which is easier, it's a toss up.

hkstroud · Mar 5, 2010, 08:37 PM

Then power must be going to the switch and then to the outlet. There should be two cables in the switch box. One bring power in and the other taking the power to the outlet.

Verify that.

Run 12-3 cable from switch to ceiling box. Remove existing black wires from switch. Connect all white wires together with wire nut. Connect all black wires together with wire nut and add a black pig tail. Connect black pig tail and red of 3-wire cable to switch terminals. Connect all grounds (bare) with wire nut and add pig tail. Connect ground pig tail to green ground screw of switch.

At ceiling box connect fan/light, black to black, white to white and blue of fan/light to red. Switch will control light and pull chain will control fan. Outlet will always be hot.

Post back if you find something different in switch box.

ceilingfanrepair · Mar 6, 2010, 04:28 PM

Running to the switch is better if there are only 2 wires (plus ground) at the outlet.

Good luck!

Ceiling Fan Wiring, Ceiling Fan Wiring Technical Help, Do it Yourself (DIY) - Ceiling Fans N More

tacmedic7248 · Mar 22, 2010, 12:32 PM

I finally found some time to start this project, and ran into a bit of a problem. Installed a Westinghouse brace without issue and secured the box with no problem. Ran 12-3 from box to where switch cable drops down into room. Here's where the problem is.

The old cable is fished through a 1/2" drilled hole and a 2X4 was nailed over it. However, they had common sense to rout out a small notch for the cable. This leaves me no way to drop the new 12-3 down to the switch.

Should I assume that I go buy a junction box, cut the cable that drops to the switch and pair it up with my new 12-3?

Also, when I removed the outlet from the housing it had four wires. Two whites, a red, and a green were attached to the outlet. The switch had a red, a bare, two blacks and two whites.

Thanks in advance for the ideas, I appreciate it!

hkstroud · Mar 22, 2010, 02:53 PM

No, you can't make connection and then hide it.

Earlier you said that there was two wires in the outlet box, a black and white. We don't count the bare or ground.

Now you say that there are two whites and a red. If there are two whites there should be two blacks and a red. Which is it? Again we are not concerned with the grounds (bare.)

A wire is a wire. A cable is two or more wires in an outer covering.

It sound like you have a 2-wire cable bringing power to the switch. A 3-wire cable taking switched and unswitched power to the outlet box. The switched leg (what ever color wire that is connected to the switch) is connected to the outlet. The unswitched leg is connected to a 2-wire cable going to another outlet. All neutrals (white are connect together and connected to the outlet.

Verify this and post back what you find.

tacmedic7248 · Mar 22, 2010, 03:07 PM

When I made my original post I was going on the assumption that the box was wired similar to one that was downstairs in my house with a similar scheme.

The outlet is two whites, one red, nothing else.

The switch is two whites, two blacks, one red.

From the looks of it, I'd guess that they've split it and added piggy backs to the other two outlets in the room.

What I don't get in your comment is why can't I make the connection and hide it?

hkstroud · Mar 22, 2010, 03:09 PM

The old cable is fished through a 1/2" drilled hole and a 2X4 was nailed over it. However, they had common sense to rout out a small notch for the cable.

By any chance do you mean up in the attic?

tacmedic7248 · Mar 22, 2010, 04:02 PM

Yes, above me is the attic.

tacmedic7248 · Mar 22, 2010, 04:05 PM

I should clarify, where this 2X4 is nailed to the ceiling joists, it's used as an anchor for the folding staircase. I had thought about just making the hole larger, but there's just no way.

That's why I figured I could cut the cable that drops into the switch, wire the fan and pair everything off. If I lose functionality to the switch and it stays as is, that's OK with me, I can live with it.

mcad · Mar 22, 2010, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by tacmedic7248

What I don't get in your comment is why can't I make the connection and hide it?

It is per NEC code that all terminations must be accessible. Not only for safety, but for convenience. If something were ever to go wrong with a buried connection, you would have to tear out part of the wall to get to it. And if you have a memory like mine, then good luck remembering exactly where you buried it!

hkstroud · Mar 22, 2010, 04:56 PM

At first I thought you meant that the 2x4 was a fire break inside the wall. Adding a junction box in the attic is no problem.
Look at the outlet wires again. Is not logical that you have a black, red and white in the switch and two whites and a black in the outlet. You will probably find that one of the white wires is really black covered with paint. If both the top and bottom of the outlet are controlled by the switch it is not logical that 3-wire cable would be used used unless the power goes on to something else. That means that there would be another cable in the outlet box. Check that both halves are controlled by the switch. How are the wires in the outlet box connected?.

tacmedic7248 · Mar 22, 2010, 07:15 PM

In reference to hiding it, I meant in a junction box in the attic, don't want people thinking I'm some fly by night homeowner. :)

It's definitely not a firebreak, I'm actually thinking about taking pictures the next time I open it up to show you how it's rigged.

The outlet when I pull it out of the wall (as you're looking at the outlet, not the back of it), the two whites are screwed onto the left top and bottom. The red wire is screwed to the right side on the bottom. They are not painted, they're white through and through. No black stripe on one either.

hkstroud · Mar 22, 2010, 07:23 PM

And there is no other wires in the box?

Is there a small metal tab connecting the two screws on the right?

hkstroud · Mar 22, 2010, 07:39 PM

Recap to see if I understand correctly.

You have a switch box with a 2-wire cable and a 3-wire cable. The 3-wire is BX or metal clad cable. The 3-wire goes up the wall from the switch to the attic. It goes across the attic and down the wall to the outlet. There are no junction boxes in the cable in the attic.

At the switch box, the two white wires are connected together, The black wires are connected together and also connected to the switch by a pig tail. The red wire of the 3-wire cable is connect to the switch. At the outlet box there are two white wire connected to the left of the outlet and a red wire connected to the right side. There are no other wires in the outlet box.

Is this all correct?

hkstroud · Mar 22, 2010, 08:12 PM

Reread all of you post and noted that you said that the outlet is on the same wall as your switch.

Now think that this is what you have.

A 2-wire BX or metal clad cable bringing power from the attic to the switch box. A 3-wire cable is taking switched and unswitched power through the wall to some other outlet or fixture. From that other outlet or fixture, switched power is taken to the switched outlet.

We have to determine why there is two white wires in the outlet box. Do you see any thing that might indicate that this wiring was done by a previous owner.

tacmedic7248 · Mar 23, 2010, 03:17 PM

Your previous post is off a bit, this is all confusing because the house is old. A cable drops down to switch from what I assume is the service. (I can't trace it because I can't get back that far, but this room is over the garage on the service side.)

The cable that drops down in my mind (and I'm not an electrician) brings power to the whole room. I believe they have it spliced in a way that they ran it to the two other outlets in the room. The switch is on the same wall as the outlet and is the only one controlled with said switch.

Tripping the breaker powers off all the outlets in this room and a room adjacent.

This wiring was not done by the previous owners, my parents bought the house from them ever since and I got it from them.

hkstroud · Mar 23, 2010, 04:45 PM

OK
I agree that the cable from the attic is bring power to the switch.
Check this and then we will ignore the question of why there are two neutrals and only one hot in the outlet box. On the other side of the wall there is probably another switch or outlet. It would be between (horizontially) the switch and the outlet. See it the 3-wire cable goes there.

In the attic you said you could not access the hole where the BX goes through the top plate because of the 2x4 that is nailed over it. Can you drill a new hole in the top plate along side the 2x4 and still be in between same studs? Or can you drill a hole through the 2x4 directly over or close to the hole in the top for the BX? Be careful not to hit the cable.

tacmedic7248 · Mar 23, 2010, 05:53 PM

On the other side of the switch is a room which is across the hallway. However it's not on the same circuit else power would go out when I tripped that breaker.

The whole with the top plate cannot be touched. I thought of different ways of going about it and I just can't. If it was just a board I'd go for it. However, given that it's bracing the attic staircase, I just can't. This is where my thought of splitting that cable and adding the junction box with the new BX coming into.

Regardless of the outcome, I'll have to take pictures one day and show this mess.