[450donn]

Since the last thread disappeared, maybe it is time to simply ask the question.

[JoeCanada76]

Are you asking anybody specifically this question?

[arcura]

450donn,
I don't believe in the rapture purely because it is not a biblical teaching.
It is erroneous theology.
The bible tells us that there will be one only return of Jesus Christ, and that the world will all face the tribulations that are to come.
When Jesus returns He will remove the anti-Christ from the throne in the temple which has yet to be rebuilt.
It took many years to rebuild Solomon's temple according to biblical directions. No iron could be used in the building thereof so modern day machinery could not be used and the cedars need to come from Lebanon.
The massive stones need to be cut from far away mountains and no iron of steel tools can be used on them either.
So it will be many years yet before the return of the Messiah.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

Fred, since the moderators will not let me answer you, (my posts keep getting deleted). So let me ask you to please post scripture for your belief.

[JoeT777]

"Why do you NOT believe in the Rapture?" Here are a few reasons:

The essence of the John Darby's theological beliefs require multiple 2nd comings of Christ. Where in scripture does it talk about the 3rd or 4th “Second coming of Christ”? Of course there are also multiple versions of just how this will happen. We've got pre-tribers, post-tribers, anti-tribers, premillenialsits, amillenialists, millenialist, postmillennialists, and dispensationalist. If the Bible “interprets itself,” how then do we discern which theories are “self-evident”. I don't want to be left behind, or do I?

We do know the 2nd coming will be like the days of Noah, they (the bad guys) will be making marry up till the last day (Matt 24:36-38). In Noah's day it was those making marry until “the flood came and took them all away.” (Matt 24:39). So, it was bad guys who were taken up in Matthew's gospel. A real contradiction left behind by Darby if he wants to "take up" the good guys.

And, when will the 2nd coming of Christ be? No one knows! (Matt 24:36) However, we do know that it will be on the “last day” (John 6:25, 39; John 12:48; John 11:24). Not a multiple number of last days but the last "last day". Scriptures don't say the last day just before the last day, or the last period before the last day. Scripture says Christ's return will be on “THE LAST DAY.”

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come-and-go on his second return? Nor can the 3rd coming of Christ be located in scripture. Why because the next, and last, coming of Christ comes on THE LAST DAY. In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.

Christ stated quite plainly, “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6: 55) Christ is calling those who “eat” his flesh, and “drinks” his blood; in other words those who are worthy to partake of the sacrament of the Eucharist are being called.

I cannot find any scriptural support that would suggest that Christ will come and go on his second return? In chapter 4 of 1 Thessalonians Paul describes the rising of both the living and the dead, whereas in John 6 we see that Christ is referring to the requirements for the dead to be taken up on the LAST DAY.

There can be no 1,000-year reign because when the kingdom of the world becomes Christ's, He begins His reign forever and ever. (Rev 11:15) Remember the dead in Christ are raised in 1 Thess 4 along with the living in Christ. And when does this occur, when death is destroyed (Cf. 1 Cor 15:23-26) which occurs on the LAST DAY. Now where, in this time line, would you suggest there is an expanse of time for a 1,000-year reign?

And my final argument here, and forgive me for doing this, I'm struck by a funny sort of irony, we don't find the word “rapture” in scripture.

JoeT

[arcura]

450donn,
JoeT answered that for me.
Thanks Joe,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Thanks Joe,
Fred

Just doing what I do.

It took many years to rebuild Solomon's temple according to biblical directions. No iron could be used in the building thereof so modern day machinery could not be used and the cedars need to come from Lebanon. The massive stones need to be cut from far away mountains and no iron of steel tools can be used on them either. So it will be many years yet before the return of the Messiah.

I think you have something; how did you come to the conclusion that iron tools couldn’t be used? I’m assuming you’re saying that the ‘rapture’ (assuming there was such a thing) couldn’t be in our time because of the ritualistic construction techniques required? If no iron or steel tools are used, it could take decades to rebuild the Temple. We would have to assume certain machines and mechanical devices couldn’t be used either. Didn’t Herod’s Temple take 40-years to build? The implications being that if the Temple were to start now it would be 40-years before it was finished. So, are you saying that because in Darby’s theory the Temple must be in place before Christ does His Divine touch and go the Rapture can't be for at least 40-years? I hadn't heard this before.

JoeT

[arcura]

JoeT,
I do believe that reading the commands to Solomon on what materials to use and not used is spelled out. Also what icons and so forth are instructed.
Yes, the return of Jesus requires that the temple of Yahweh be built. The bible also mentions from what third temple gate He will emerge from, but I no longer remember where that is in the bible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

Just doing what I do.




I think you have something; how did you come to the conclusion that iron tools couldn’t be used? I’m assuming you’re saying that the ‘rapture’ (assuming there was such a thing) couldn’t be in our time because of the ritualistic construction techniques required? If no iron or steel tools are used, it could take decades to rebuild the Temple. We would have to assume certain machines and mechanical devices couldn’t be used either. Didn’t Herod’s Temple take 40-years to build?How many workers did Herod have? 10-20 thousand? A workforce of 1 million could build the temple in what? Maybe a year! The implications being that if the Temple were to start now it would be 40-years before it was finished. So, are you saying that because in Darby’s theory the Temple must be in place before Christ does His Divine touch and goI just love this recycled false metaphor. Please explain how you come up with this one or drop it! the Rapture can't be for at least 40-years? Again an assumption based on ? NOTHING!!I hadn't heard this before.

JoeT

Again, all of these assumptions conveniently ignore JN14:1-3,1CO15:51-53,1TH 4:15-5:11,1CO3:11-15,2CO 5:10. Nor do you account for the loss of "saints" or Christians during the tribulation. Where is the Christian church during this time? How come Satan is not restrained today? It is because the Church has a restraining force on him and when the Church is removed that restraining force is also removed, allowing Satan to rein and rule. HUMMM

[JoeT777]

Again, all of these assumptions conveniently ignore JN14:1-3,1CO15:51-53,1TH 4:15-5:11,1CO3:11-15,2CO 5:10. Nor do you account for the loss of "saints" or Christians during the tribulation. Where is the Christian church during this time? How come Satan is not restrained today? It is because the Church has a restraining force on him and when the Church is removed that restraining force is also removed, allowing Satan to rein and rule. HUMMM

What about "JN14:1-3,1CO15:51-53,1TH 4:15-5:11,1CO3:11-15,2CO 5:10"? I don't believe in rapture the way it is understood here?

Just in case you don't know, there are limits as to how many people can work on a single construction project. Too many and the site become congested and the work can't move forward, too few and they can't physically do the job. Thus, using only manual labor the critical path to accomplish the work will be driven by the distant of the quarry from the site, the footprint of the project, the size of stones to be moved, the number of men needed to move each stone, and the sequence in which the stones are placed. You can have all the stone cutters in the world, but if the workers are elbow to elbow all you'd be doing is placing stones on the toes of the workers - - And they'd tend to complain mightily after about two or three stones.


JoeT

[450donn]

[QUOTE=JoeTI don't believe in rapture the way it is understood here?

JoeT[/QUOTE]
Thank you. Now I totally understand.

[arcura]

JoeT,
The same applies to getting the huge trees from Lebanon, and IF the modern government would allow them to be taken to Jerusalem.
Then there is the current day dilemma that the Philistines want Jerusalem for their capitol and though the temple mount does belong to the Jew the Muslims will not allow the Jews to build thereon.
All that will take much diplomacy (or whatever) time.
True is the fact that Israel has been collecting moneys for the building of the third temple but I have no idea on how much they have been able to gather together or IF it is enough.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

Since the temple will not even be started until the church is taken from the earth, and Satan is allowed free reign over the entire earth. With a one world government the things you mention will not matter much.

[arcura]

450donn,
Oh, but it will matter a lot for you see the temple must be built before Satan as or through the anti-Christ takes over the temple throne.
Upon Jesus Christ's return He kicks the anti-Christ off the throne.
So it may be many years before the temple is built and the rest then takes place.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[450donn]

OH Gad, you are sooo mixed up. The temple is to be build during the tribulation period. Not before and not after! The church is the restraining force in the world today. Not until that restraint is removed will Satan be allowed to run wild for seven years. That is the signal of the start of the tribulation. Or don't you believe in that too?

[arcura]

450donn,
No, I don't think so. I'm not mixed up for I believe what the bible says about The Church
What evidence do you have that the temple will be built during the tribulations.
It would seem to me that during that time building much of anything would be very trying and difficult.
Jesus said that HIS Church would withstand even the gates of hell, so I think that His Church will remain active until His return.
Peace and kindness,
Fred