[galveston]

First of all, do you believe that Jesus Christ was a man? (Careful, I didn't say only a man.)

Secondly, do you see any connection between the dogma of The Immaculate Conception and the humanity of Christ?

I believe that there is an intimate connection between these two concepts.

[ROLCAM]

Do you believe that Jesus Christ was a man?
YES, definitely so.
The dogma of The Immaculate Conception means that SHE was born different from any human being.
She was born untainted without
Original sin.
The connection of the two is that
She was instrumental in bringing
Jesus Christ to live amongst us.
She was worthily specially chosen for
Jesus to become a man.

[paraclete]

First of all, do you believe that Jesus Christ was a man? (Careful, I didn't say only a man.)

Secondly, do you see any connection between the dogma of The Immaculate Conception and the humanity of Christ?

I believe that there is an intimate connection between these two concepts.

1. yes Jesus was human, he was a male human but he was also God.

2. No, dogma is dogma, Christ was born a man and to do this God required a human vessel because Jesus had to be 100% human in order for the sacrifice for sin to be made. Mary has a unique place in history, but Jesus made it very plain that it was about him, not Mary. Only Jesus made the sacrifice, only Jesus redeemed us.

[galveston]

do you believe that Jesus Christ was a man?
YES, definitely so.
The dogma of The Immaculate Conception means that SHE was born different from any human being.
She was born untainted without
original sin.
The connection of the two is that
she was instrumental in bringing
Jesus Christ to live amongst us.
She was worthily specially chosen for
Jesus to become a man.

I will be bold here and say that there is not one scrap of scripture to base this dogma on.

Jesus used the title "Son of Man" almost exclusively. If Mary was not conceived just like all the rest of us, then the connection between Christ and mankind is broken, and all the types of Messiah in the Old Testament are not applicable.

The only way for Mary to be born without sin would be if her father was not a sinner. Mary was conceived in the usual manner and had no advantage over any other Jewish girl of her time, except that she was a descendent of King David.

The fact that she was devout had nothing to do with her birth.

[TUT317]

I will be bold here and say that there is not one scrap of scripture to base this dogma on.

Jesus used the title "Son of Man" almost exclusively. If Mary was not conceived just like all the rest of us, then the connection between Christ and mankind is broken, and all the types of Messiah in the Old Testament are not applicable.

The only way for Mary to be born without sin would be if her father was not a sinner. Mary was conceived in the usual manner and had no advantage over any other Jewish girl of her time, except that she was a descendent of King David.

The fact that she was devout had nothing to do with her birth.

Hi Gal,

Impressive reasoning going on here.



Tut

[deepinthought2]

I think the concept of the immaculate conception is a literalizing of a spiritual symbol. The immaculate mother stands for the purified, or divine nature (unconscious spiritualized tendencies - the Holy Spirit) that brings forth spiritual awareness (conscious spiritualized thinking - Jesus coming to live in us) which is the Christ that is born within us. This is the rebirth that Christ speaks about - the spirit that brings forth spirit. Mary herself was the flesh that brought forth flesh. As stated by Galveston, how could she be born without original sin? Then her parents would have to have been born sinless too which means there was a secret race of sinless people on earth.

[paraclete]

I think the concept of the immaculate conception is a literalizing of a spiritual symbol. The immaculate mother stands for the purified, or divine nature (unconscious spiritualized tendencies - the Holy Spirit) that brings forth spiritual awareness (conscious spiritualized thinking - Jesus coming to live in us) which is the Christ that is born within us. This is the rebirth that Christ speaks about - the spirit that brings forth spirit. Mary herself was the flesh that brought forth flesh. As stated by Galveston, how could she be born without original sin? Then her parents would have to have been born sinless too which means there was a secret race of sinless people on earth.

That is straight heresy, you cannot suggest that Mary and the Holy Spirit are the same. Mary stands for motherhood and obedience to God's will. There is no sinless race of people otherwise Christ died for nothing. Remember, for it is easily forgotten, what is impossible for man is possible for God. It is faith and obedience that sancified Mary. You cannot argue any of this with Catholics, they will just quote doctrine to you

[deepinthought2]

Yeah sorry - I"m not saying Mary and the Holy Spirit are the same. Mary is Mary. Catholicism is a blend of Christian and pagan symbolism. There is no 24 or 25th of December in the Bible - it comes from Mithraism and is the day of the rebirth of the sun 3 days after its death at the winter solstice. And there is no immaculate conception in the Bible either. It was taken from pagan myths about the virgin mother which symbolizes the birth of consciousness out of unconsciousness or instinct - an evolutionary concept. The pagan Greeks equated Mary with their mother goddess who gives birth to her son, or the sun. In esoteric teaching the immaculate virgin mother is supposedly the purified nature of the aspirant that gives birth to the enlightened state of consciousness. Now if you do want to put it in Christian terms, then the good virgin mother is the good fertile soil of Christ's parable that receives the Holy Spirit seed to give birth to the reborn Christ-like nature. I was just continuing in the Catholic tradition of blending symbolisms, but perhaps its best not to. Show me in the Bible that Mary is co-redemptrix. Luke 11:27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." 28He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

[paraclete]

Yeah sorry - I"m not saying Mary and the Holy Spirit are the same. Mary is Mary. Catholicism is a blend of Christian and pagan symbolism. There is no 24 or 25th of December in the Bible - it comes from Mithraism and is the day of the rebirth of the sun 3 days after its death at the winter solstice. And there is no immaculate conception in the Bible either. It was taken from pagan myths about the virgin mother which symbolizes the birth of consciousness out of unconsciousness or instinct - an evolutionary concept. The pagan Greeks equated Mary with their mother goddess who gives birth to her son, or the sun. In esoteric teaching the immaculate virgin mother is supposedly the purified nature of the aspirant that gives birth to the enlightened state of consciousness. Now if you do want to put it in Christian terms, then the good virgin mother is the good fertile soil of Christ's parable that receives the Holy Spirit seed to give birth to the reborn Christ-like nature. I was just continuing in the Catholic tradition of blending symbolisms, but perhaps its best not to. Show me in the Bible that Mary is co-redemptrix. Luke 11:27As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, "Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you." 28He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."

I would avoid rewriting Christ's parables and I would certainly avoid continuing Catholic mysicism and symbolism. Jesus did not exalt Mary in her life time above her status as his mother and neither should we rather we should focus on Jesus

[deepinthought2]

Let me just clarify my point of view (hopefully):
1. Mary was a fallible being and serves no spiritual role
2. Jesus is the focal point and a real person and God
3. The concept of the Immaculate Conception is a contamination from pagan mythology due to the similar symbolism – it has no Biblical foundation

Early Christians, being Greeks etc, were poetic thinkers with a background in mythology. And they liked to expand Biblical symbols a little bit. I think it started innocently enough, but later the Romans and Roman Catholicism literalized everything and deified these symbols. So I am not trying to deify Mary by any means but merely trying to explain how she, besides being a person, also featured in their way of thinking as a symbol that only later progressed to become a deity.
Because the goddesses of mythology represent both mother nature and human nature, it was natural for them to see (in their poetic mindset) Mary as a symbol of the fallible human psyche or mind that is fertilized from above (by the Holy Spirit) to conceive Christ within us. They used the mystery of the birth of Christ to illustrate the mystery of rebirth of the Christian. And to them she was like the fertile soil of Christ's parable that receives the seed and brings forth a harvest of grain (the bread of life). She was fertile because she accepted the Spirit, but the fact that she was the good soil later made her the good mother and then the infallible mother – just a natural decay from abstract to concrete thinking. I'm not putting a new spin on Christ's parable and saying that He is referring to Mary. It was the Christianized pagans who did that.
So while I lament the course of events, I think that their initial insight was actually quite neat. It didn't contradict the Bible and the intention was not to bring paganism in. It actually reminds me that Christ is both our outward saviour and a symbol of an inner process that must take place.

[galveston]

Too complicated for me, Deep, I'm just a simple man.

[JoeT777]

First of all, do you believe that Jesus Christ was a man? (Careful, I didn't say only a man.)

I believe that Christ was one Person, that he subsists with two natures, human and God, i.e. Hypostasis union.

"And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. “ ( John 1:14)

"Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. He humbled himself, becoming obedient unto death, even to the death of the cross." (Phil 2:6-8)

Secondly, do you see any connection between the dogma of The Immaculate Conception and the humanity of Christ?

I believe the proclamation made in Ineffabilis Deus:

...the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful.

I believe that there is an intimate connection between these two concepts.

Yes there is an unbreakable bond between the two doctrines – without Mary Christ is a creature, created like the rest of us, without an immaculate Mary Christ is born with inherited sin of Adam.
Ineffabilis Deus:

... the most glorious Virgin, for whom "he who is mighty has done great things," was resplendent with such an abundance of heavenly gifts, with such a fullness of grace and with such innocence, that she is an unspeakable miracle of God -- indeed, the crown of all miracles and truly the Mother of God; that she approaches as near to God himself as is possible for a created being; and that she is above all men and angels in glory. Hence, to demonstrate the original innocence and sanctity of the Mother of God, not only did they frequently compare her to Eve while yet a virgin, while yet innocence, while yet incorrupt, while not yet deceived by the deadly snares of the most treacherous serpent; but they have also exalted her above Eve with a wonderful variety of expressions. Eve listened to the serpent with lamentable consequences; she fell from original innocence and became his slave. The most Blessed Virgin, on the contrary, ever increased her original gift, and not only never lent an ear to the serpent, but by divinely given power she utterly destroyed the force and dominion of the evil one.

JoeT

[galveston]

So, Joe,

Do I understand you correctly?

You cite Catholic dogma to support Catholec dogma?

Every true doctrine will be proved by multiple Bible passages.

Can you support "immaculate conception" by any Bible passages?

Wasn't that proclaimed by the Pope in the 1950's or thereabout?

Don't you think that is a little late for us to consider it as being true?

[JoeT777]

Do I understand you correctly?

If you understood the importance of the Church’s teaching, you wouldn’t have asked the following questions; but, you did understand me correctly, if you understood you read;

a.) Christ subsists with two natures, human and God, i.e. Hypostasis union.

b.) the “first instance of [Mary’s] conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful,”

c.)Mary is the ‘new’ Eve.

You cite Catholic dogma to support Catholic dogma?

Which means what? Are you teaching that God’s revelation to man stopped after the Catholic Church canonized Scripture?

Every true doctrine will be proved by multiple Bible passages.

Where is that written? I missed that passage.

Can you support "immaculate conception" by any Bible passages?

Yes, and I’ve done so several times. Did you forget and would like for me to do it again?

Wasn't that proclaimed by the Pope in the 1950's or thereabout?

Roughtly 100 A.D. and formalized by the Pope in 1854 A.D.

Don't you think that is a little late for us to consider it as being true?

It’s Catholic doctrine. “Doctrine” means “the act of teaching”; Church doctrine then becomes catechetical instruction to the faithful.

JoeT

[De Maria]

Yeah sorry - I"m not saying Mary and the Holy Spirit are the same. Mary is Mary. Catholicism is a blend of Christian and pagan symbolism. There is no 24 or 25th of December in the Bible - it comes from Mithraism and is the day of the rebirth of the sun 3 days after its death at the winter solstice. ....

Actually no. It comes from the 25th of March, which is precisely 9 months before Christmas. And that happens to coincide with the date that the Jews believe was the first day of Creation, as in Genesis. The 25th of March is Day 1, 26th day 2, 27th day 3, 28th day 4, 29th day 5, 30th day 6 and 31st day 7. And their calendar began on April 1.

You see, Jesus is the New Creation.

[De Maria]

First of all, do you believe that Jesus Christ was a man? (Careful, I didn't say only a man.)

Yes.

Secondly, do you see any connection between the dogma of The Immaculate Conception and the humanity of Christ?

Yes.

I believe that there is an intimate connection between these two concepts.

I do also. Please explain what you think.

[De Maria]

So, Joe,

Do I understand you correctly?

You cite Catholic dogma to support Catholec dogma?

Don't you cite the Bible to support the Bible? You probably think I'm only making one point here, but I'm making two. The Bible is a Catholic book. So every time you cite the Bible to support doctrine, you are using a Catholic citation.

Every true doctrine will be proved by multiple Bible passages.

Show me from Scripture.

Can you support "immaculate conception" by any Bible passages?

Yes. I'll start with one.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Mary is the Woman to whom this verse refers. There is enmity between she and Satan. Therefore she could never be controlled by him. And therefore she was born immaculate.

Wasn't that proclaimed by the Pope in the 1950's or thereabout?

Yes. A doctrine which was always held by the Catholic Church was proclaimed because of the challenge posed by Protestants. Just as in the Council of Trent, the same 73 books of the Bible were canonized because of the challenge by the Protestants.

Don't you think that is a little late for us to consider it as being true?

It was a confirmation of the truth held since Apostolic times.

[JoeT777]

Juan:

Look at this, the best I've seen.

YouTube - The Truth About Mary and Scripture: MUST SEE!


JoeT

[galveston]

See: Rom 3:10-12, 3:23, 5:12, Ps 14:3, 53:3,

Do you guys believe these Scriptures? They prove the UNIVERSAL need for us to be saved from our sin. There are NO exclusions.

These also illustrate what I said about every true doctrine being supported by several passages.

PS, Joe, I ain't Juan. He lives a few blocks South of me.

[De Maria]

Juan:

Look at this, the best I've seen.

YouTube - The Truth About Mary and Scripture: MUST SEE!


JoeT

That is awesome! Thanks!