[big1bird]

I have a upstairs tub, which is structurally sound, and the wall around it (tile) appears to be in good condition, and the grout looks excellent. However, every now and then, the ceiling below gets water. I can't quite figure it out, because it seems to happen somewhat randomly. For example, it happened tonight. The floor outside the shower was and is dry.

My only guess is that sometimes the drain is leaking, but not all the time.

Anyone have any ideas before I go cutting the ceiling open to see what I'm dealing with?

Oh the floor is ceramic tile, and the tub is a steel tub, circa 1984. This problem has happened on and off for 10 years, but seems to be a bigger annoyance. Furthermore, the kids are older now... when they were young, I always assumed that one of them left a bucket of water standing on the tile floor. That probably isn't happening now.

Thanks.

bb

[speedball1]

The problem with your problem is that it does't leak all the time. Is the tub used as a tub or a shower or both. If both then which use produces the most leakage? To fix a problem you must first isolate and locate it. In your case by the process of elimination. Close the stopper on the tub and run a full tub of water and let it set over night . Have someone put weight near the drain to test the seal. Fresh water marks in the morning? No? Then drain the tub and check for moisture. Still no joy? Now have someone take a shower and check for moisture then. Spray the water all over the tiles and the tub lip where the tile meets the tub. Let me know the outcome. Cheers, Tom

[big1bird]

Dug more. The tub is 98% used as a shower. Here's what I'm finding out. It apparently seems to leak when people showing stand on the drain area. No cracks in the tub, but I'm afraid that with a steel tub, there is some flexing, and this is aggrivating the leak.

If the tub is filled with water, and sits overnight, there is no leaking.

Let me guess, I'm cutting off the ceiling again?

Last time it was off, I couldn't find any leaks, and assumed that the water was from kids spilling it on the floor. It's not.

Top job, or bottom job?

[speedball1]

You have described a ruptured seal under the drain lip. This is caused by the tub not being properly bedded at installation. Before you tear up the ceiling try this. Take silicon jel and force as much as you can under the lip of the drain all the way around. Wipe off the excess and let it set overnight to cure and set up. Now try it. If you still have a leak click on back and we'll install a new drain seal. Good luck and happy turkey day. Tom

[big1bird]

I'm not sure I have the correct diagram, but it looks like from the top, there is a screen, then a flange, then a gasket to the tub, then parts I can't access from the top. Do I have that right?

So you're saying to pull the screen, then the flange, and put silicone on the gasket area. Is that right?

We've done Turkeys in a electric roaster, and moved it outside to reduce smoke in the house. New tech is such a great thing! Enjoy yours.

[speedball1]

This is a image of your drain, called a tub shoe. I hope the installer didn't install the rubber gasket under the lip of the drain because it doesn't belong there. It belongs UNDER the tub on the BOTTOM of the drain. If there's a rubber gasket under the lip then you have a problem If you place a pair of pliers in the crosspieces of the drain it should unscrew counterclockwise. Back it out enough to force silicon jel or a small rope of plumbers putty under the lip and screw the drain back down forcing out the potty or jel. Now it's getting time for my dinner and I'm signing off for the day. Regards, Tom

[big1bird]

Tom, is a dumbbell wrench what might be used to pull the flange? (I understand that you said I can probably use a pliers, inside.)

Let's assume that the installer did a best effort, and that the gasket is in the right spot. Let's also assume that the gasket got loose, old, whatever, and that even there was a little settling on the house in that area (that area was drenched for 6 weeks, with the roof open, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a 3/8" shift in dimensions and things dried out). If that is the case, I could:

-tighten the flange (will only work if loose enough to leak)
-loosen the flange, gain access to the gasket area, and work silicone (RTV) into the gasket area; give it time to cure, and see if that works.

Lets assume that the gasket is damaged beyond ready repair... can I work a new one into place? Are they softer like O-rings, or a hard rubber?

Now, having told you all that, I have a bad feeling. In the basement, beneath the laundry tub on the 1st floor, I've always had a drip, but never saw it. Last year I found it, and found that the PVC waste pipe was never welded there. So I cut a ring of PVC from a coupler, using the bandsaw, and then glued the patch in place. I wonder if they forgot to weld a waste on the tub...

Thanks again... let me know if I seem to understand the problem correctly. Thanks.

[speedball1]

That's one hellava lot of assuming. But OK, assume the rubber gaskets shot and you have to replace it. You're in luck. You won't have to do this from the bottom and the gasket is soft pliable rubber. Take your wrench, yes a dumbbell will work if it fits the cross, and take the drain out all the way. Slip the old rubber gasket out and take it in to a plumbing shop to be replaced.
Now slip the rubber back on top of the tub shoe and after you clean off the lip run a small rope of putty or silicon jel around the underside of the lip. Now tighten the drain in the tub shoe. Wipe off the excess and you're back in business. If you still have a leak then you can suppect the tailpiece wasn't glued in, but I got to hunch once you seal the drain the leak will disappear Regards, Tom

[big1bird]

Tom, I picked up gaskets... all I could find, and looked at a kit. The system is rather simple. I also got a dumbbell wrench, just in case I need it. (Given how much I spend at the local harware outfits, I don't feel bad about returning unused items from time to time.)

I'll tackle the job Friday. A couple of questions...

1. For gaskets, I found three thicknesses: 3/32, 1/8, 3/8. No 1/4" So I guess I'll see what I pull out. But perhaps you can tell me what is standard. I suppose if it's 3/32 and there's a gap, I can go up to 1/8,. But it's a real big jump to 3/8.

2. The kits look simple enough to install, if the ceiling below is cut open. However, if I have pvc, and it's leaking at the seams, presumably, I could "patch" the pvc, instead of completely changing the assembly out. It will be situational.

I'll pop the drain, and see what I have to deal with, and then drop a post. Thanks for pointing me in what appears to be the right direction.

[big1bird]

Tom, went at it this morning, and ran into mechancal issues. The drain assy is cast brass, and the drain in the tub didn't want to turn. There is a cast cross piece, which has a screwhole in it, and that is the only thing to grab in to. I spread the jaws of my needle nose, put a crescent on the joint, and promptly started deforming the crossmember.

I'm thinking of trying to work a light penetrating oil into the joint, and considering cutting a groove into a socket, where the groove would accept the crossmember, and the socket would be a tight fit for the drain. Using a socket would allow me to run airimpact, which can often free things up before they break (at least on rusty cars).

I'm open for ideas, if you have any others.

Oh, the kids were instructed to lower the water flow in their showers, and that almost eliminated the leakage to the ceiling below.

Bb

[big1bird]

OK, here's the update. I tapped around the drain with a hammer, and then applied the newly bought "dumbell" wrench, which was a reasonable alternative to the grooved socket. Drain out.

The gasket was covered with a layer of plumbers putty, and after exposing it, I tried to extract it. The material broke easily. BINGO. But did not come out easily. Before I went and destroyed it, I checked against my bag of parts. I don't have a replacement gasket the same thickness. The old one looks like it's a little over 3/16" I have 3/32, 1/8 (rare by my survey), and 3/8".

At this point, I know I have a funky gasket, but I may end up using the silicone "RTV" fix until I can figure out how to get a suitable replacement gasket.

The other thing I expected was a flat flange on the tub drain. Instead, it appears to be curved to a sharp edge, which exerts a fair amount of pressure on the rubber gasket. That makes me concerned about getting a new gasket into there. The brass piece underneath doesn't seem to be very yielding to 20 or 30 pounds of pressure.

Your thoughts?

Bb

[speedball1]

OK! Ya got the drain lip out. But there you lost me. Was the rubber gasket under the lip of the drain or on the flat part of the tub shoe under the tub?
Most tub shoe gaskets look to be about 1/8th" thick. Why not go to a plumbing shop and buy one? I don't know if I gave you a run down on the way a tub shoe and drain is set up but I'll do so now. It goes like this. On top of the tub, The drain and lip with a small rope of plumbers putty or silicon jel. This screws into the tub shoe that has the rubber gasket on the flat top of the tub shoe. You sound like you're attempting to install the gasket under the drain lip and that's wrong. Let me know, Tom

[big1bird]

Tom, thanks for your persistence and patience.

The installation I have is as you describe.

The gaskets I could find were 3/32, 1/8 and 3/8. My gasket measures just over 3/16. 1/8 would be
Small, perhaps causing the show to be angled. I spent a couple of hours looking for a gasket closer to 3/16, and when I couldn't find one, I put a rope of putty in place and tightened the drain down. I figure I'll go back in extract the old gasket, replace it, and seal with RTV/ silicone.

My shoe is brass, and does not flex away from the tub. Getting the gasket out will be tough, but readily doable. Putting the same thickness one in will be real hard.

Bb

[big1bird]

Here's what I did... because we were down to one shower...

-left the old gasket in place.
-cleaned things up.
-put a rope of putty around the old gasket.
-cleaned the old putty off the drain, in the threads and on the flange.
-tightened down the flange.
-tested, then plungered the drain with a small plunger, to assure that the trap wasn't slow.

Eight showers later, the ceiling below isn't getting wetter. I put a floodlight on the ceiling to help dry it out. Winds here were 50 or so; the infiltration should help exchange any damp air out.

Tom, thanks for your help. I understand now how the system works. I'll try to find a 3/16 gasket, and I'm sure I'll be in there again.

[speedball1]

You may have already fixed the problem since the main seal is the rope of plumbers putty under the drain lip. The rubber gasket on the tub shoe seals the tub shoe to the bottom of the tub but it's the lip seal that keeps out the water. Good luck, Tom