[arcura]

It seems to me that there may be several reasons Jesus established The Church.
:confused:How many reasons can you think of as to why he did?:confused:
:)Peace and kindness:),
Fred

[450donn]

I see no where that Jesus established ANY churches. He was a homeless teacher. A person that traveled from place to place teaching salvation.

[galveston]

Matt 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(KJV)

(Please, let's not get into the arguments about petros and petra here as it is not germaine to the question)

You see in this scripture that Jesus said He would build His church.

It was established on a particular day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled 120 believers. (Acts ch 2)

He establshed it to be his representative on Earth after His departure back into Heaven. Not one man, but a Church that would do the same works that He Himself did while here on Earth.

[arcura]

galveston,
You are right and that is one of the reasons I was looking for and In thought of it.
But...
I think that there are more reasdons.
Thanks,
Fred

[Maggie 3]

We are a big family of God. Heb.10:14 says that by one offering, God
Has perfected forever those who are sanctified by the offering of Jesus
Christ on the Cross of Calvary. We are family and as family, it is the
Intention of our Father that we dwell together in unity. "Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for the brethren to dwell together in unity." Ps.33:1 Our heavenly Father loves seeing His kids together in
Unity with all their personalities and characteristics. When God's people
Under the direction of the Holy Spirit move in unity we can storm the
Gates of hell and make a lasting permanent impact. The prayer of unity
Was Jesus prayer. Satan intends to disrupt the unity of the family,and
In the church but there is power in unity. This is just a part of what
The Lord wants for His Church. Learning and growing together in unity.

Love and Blessings, Maggie 3

[arcura]

Maggie 3,
That was very good and it is sad that the church has splintered into thousands of denominations some at angry or hate filled attack on others.
I'm sure that Jesus wanted much love, peace and kindness in a unity of His followers.
It is another reason of why Jesus establish The Church which He call "My Church".
I think that there are other reasons also.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[paraclete]

I think a better question Fred is what did Jesus understand as the Church he established.
The meaning of Church is the called out ones and we know he called out the Apostles with the intention they should call us out. We don't see any structure other than the model of itinerant ministry, preaching and healing the sick. This model is far from what we have now.
Jesus wanted the message of salvation spread throughout the world. He didn't tell the Apostles to build buildings so we could have meetings and have them more abundantly. His model was to preach on the hillsides.

[arcura]

paraclete,
I asked the question as I did for a reason.
Your suggestion is another and different.
Why not ask it.
I'm still looking for more answers with reasons some may think of.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Christ established HIS church upon a rock of love. It was what Peter had revealed to him by the Father in Heaven. And it is what Peter did confess, love for Christ Jesus, the begotten Son of God.

The love for Christ Jesus, the grace of God for mankind.

Note the number of times Peter had to proclaim his love for Christ. Three times! Spiritual Significance of the number 3 is completeness. We see the number 3 uses in scripture many times to confirm, and testify of spiritual completeness.

John 21:15-16-17 Feed my sheep!

[galveston]

I think a better question Fred is what did Jesus understand as the Church he established.
The meaning of Church is the called out ones and we know he called out the Apostles with the intention they should call us out. We don't see any structure other than the model of itinerant ministry, preaching and healing the sick. This model is far from what we have now.

AGREED WITH THE POSSIBLE EXCEPTION OF SOME OF THE "PENTECOSTAL" GROUPS.

Jesus wanted the message of salvation spread throughout the world. He didn't tell the Apostles to build buildings so we could have meetings and have them more abundantly. His model was to preach on the hillsides.

I agreee with this last paragraph only in part.

Jesus taught in the synagogues until the leaders there made Him unwelcome there.

Paul always went to the synagogue first, and when they rejected his message, he preached every place that he had an opportunity.

Worship is best with others of like faith in a group setting.

Witnessing is done outside the church walls, one on one, or maybe preaching on a street.

Unless you live in a place where you are persecuted, then you do whatever you are able to do, and leave off some things you might like to do.

[arcura]

sndbay,
You have made some excellent points.
Thanks much,
Fred

[I Newton]

In order to gain power and prestige and lord it over people, some churches claim that Peter was the rock that Jesus built his church on when he said upon “THIS” rock I will build my church.

Matt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Was Jesus referring to Peter as being the rock?
Or was Jesus referring to himself as being the rock just as he was referring to himself as “THIS” temple at John 2:19

John 2:19
Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Consider too:

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone.

As back then, they still reject Jesus.

Ephesians 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,

Also consider:

If Jesus established a church, which one could it be? Is it possible to find the real church among the 2000 or so false ones? Are you able to eliminate any?

Well, look at some very very basic truths and see if any of them rule any churches out.

Luke 22:24-26
And there arose also a dispute among them {as to} which one of them was regarded to be greatest.
And He said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called 'Benefactors.'
But {it is} not this way with you,
(If Peter was above them, this would be a lie)


Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
(Any church that fights back does not have faith in God taking vengeance)

Matthew 24:24
"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Galatians 1:8
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
(Any church that teaches opposite is obviously not the one)

2Peter 2:1,3
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you… And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed … By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words
(It is not as if the church as an organisation will be safe)

1John 3:10
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
(You can clearly see if they are from God or the Devil, no matter what they say)

Matthew 23:9
And don't address anyone here on earth as `Father,' for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father.
(Any church that requires you to call their priests “Father” is obviously not the one)

1Corinthians 9:5
Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
1Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,
(Any church that does not allow it's priests or bishops to marry is obviously not the one)

Philippians 4:5
Let your gentleness be known to all men
(Are they known for their gentleness? If not, they are not the one)

Proverbs 27:2
Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips.
(What does the world say about them? Or are they the ones praising themselves)

Revelation 02:10
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw [some] of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Romans 12:17
Repay no one evil for evil
1Peter 2:20
But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this [is] commendable before God.
(Are they prepared to die for their faith, or are they prepared to kill for their faith)

2Corinthians 5:5-7
God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So [we are] always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
For we walk by faith, not by sight.
(Do they believe the guarantee or do they need idols to walk by sight?)

2Corinthians 06:16-17
And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among [them]. I will be their God, And they shall be My people."
Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord.
(Does the church have idols? If so, they are obviously not the church of God)

Acts 17:29-30
Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
(The days of ignorance were already over, no longer would it be acceptable to need idols to walk by sight. The real church has no idols. Most churches think Jesus is God and they hang a tortured figure of him everywhere.)

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying, give without pay.
(Do they get paid for their spiritual work?)
(Worse still do they ask the people they preach to for payment?)

1Corinthians 9:18
That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge,
2Corinthians 11:7
Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge?

Micah 3:11
Her heads judge for a bribe, Her priests teach for pay, And her prophets divine for money. Yet they lean on the LORD, and say, "Is not the LORD among us? No harm can come upon us."
(Did they collect money to get you to heaven?)
(Do the priests get paid to teach?)
(Do they claim they are God's church)

I could go on for days. It is easy to see if the church you are looking at meets ANY requirements of God.

So, should you believe them if they say Peter is the rock? Should you believe them if they say Peter handed the keys down to them? There is a huge gap between Peter and the founding fathers of Roman infiltrated churches so there is no way anyone can claim such a thing anyway.

BUT, by their action you will know if they are children of God, or children of the Devil, therefore, you will know if they are the church of God, or the church of the Devil.

[sndbay]

In order to gain power and prestige and lord it over people, some churches claim that Peter was the rock that Jesus built his church on when he said upon “THIS” rock I will build my church.

Newton, I trust Peter was what his name signified, because in the time frame taking place then, names of the bible were given to signify their integrity. It indicates they never fall back from this interpreted meaning.

As Christ means "anointed"
As Peter means "rock"
As Jabez means "sorrow"
(the list goes on and on)

So Peter was as his name indicates, unyeilding rock or stone, and from what scripture has written, Peter was shown spiritually signified unyeilding in his love for Christ Jesus. (John 21:15-16-17) This love for Christ was what Peter was told to feed the sheep.


However, that does not mean that any denomination can claim to be of Peter (nor should they desire this of heart), or take on what was spiritually witnessed and written in scripture concerning Peter.

Furthermore, in full assurance, Peter was never the corner stone of the church foundation. There are many others who are named Peter in the scripture, and none of them are "THE ROCK" written of in 1 Corinthinas 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Any denomination that would say they drink of Peter would have left their first love "Christ Jesus"

~Confessed faith in the begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ

[I Newton]

I think that's a pretty fair point sndbay

[arcura]

I Newton,
Well over 1 billion Christians believe that Jesus established The Church and appointed Peter as its first leader.
They have the right to believe as the wish just as you do.
So PLEASE do not use your belief as a means to bash the several denominations that believe the Peter was the fist leader of The Church just as the bible clearly says.
Thanks,
Fred

[I Newton]

I can only state what the Bible says and can only answer people's questions from the Bible.

I cannot comment on what churches teach their followers.

The number of people that believe something means nothing when it comes to what is real.

Quantity is not proof.

The proof is in the pudding; what does the actions of their church say about the origins of their church?

It is very simple.

[sndbay]

I Newton,
Well over 1 billion Christians believe that Jesus established The Church and appointed Peter as its first leader.
Fred

Fred, The question I would have in this statement that Peter is the first leader, is whether you are in belief that Christ is the Master. You must know that Peter did call Christ, Master.

I believe Christ is the Master, and would be called leader. (Matthew 23:10) From what scripture says Christ is the Master and all other are brethren. (Matthew 23:8)

Master is the greatest of all commands of the law! Because it holds true to love for God above all, and is the first commandment. (Matthew22:36)

Peter being one of the 12 disciples, he is among brethren that follow Christ.
Luke 6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

And scripture says those that are perfect, or sanctified meet with what Our Master can use. This goes with following righteousness. And Fred, you with Wondergirl have said you do not believe any are righteous, and that all men are sinners.

Scripture showing that Christ our Master can not use sinners.
2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

I trust nothing on this earth of man other then Christ can be considered our Master or leader. Peter himself was told to feed the Master's sheep. And we follow Christ, He has the led!

Matthew 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

[arcura]

I firmly believe what the bible says about Peter being appointed the first leader of what Jesus called "My Church".
If you do not that's sad.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

I firmly believe what the bible says about Peter being appointed the first leader of what Jesus called "My Church".
If you do not that's sad.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I firmly believe we are to follow Christ, and there is no sadness in doing so.
Jesus said in (John 10:7) Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And Christ said His sheep hear His voice. There is no other way then to follow Christ as HE is the leader and Master.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

The One body and One spirit is what we as members are called to in One hope. Christ dwells in us, the Holy Spirit is with us.

We are not called to follow Peter, but we should follow Christ as Peter did. The truth is what Peter would feed the sheep. The sheep hear Christ' voice. The Spiritual Truth that came to us in the flesh, the Word of God.

~in Christ

[JoeT777]

I firmly believe what the bible says about Peter being appointed the first leader of what Jesus called "My Church".
If you do not that's sad.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

It seems that all of Matthew is dedicated to telling the story of how a ‘Church’ was started. In fact this wouldn’t be quite right. All of Matthew is telling how authority of ‘old Church’ is transferred to the new Church. It’s a story told much like the movie the Dirty Dozen.

In Matthew we are told who was selected to become ‘Princes’ of this new Church; how the ‘Twelve’ learned by Christ’s example; how the Twelve went out into the community to train under Christ’s tutelage; when they were commissioned; what they were commissioned to do. Mark and Luke are more historical in this regard. While not as explicit as Matthew these Gospels seem to reinforce the ‘formation’ of the Church in a witness format. John seems to add a spiritual element in the quartette, lets us know that Christ isn’t GONE; Yet a little while and the world sees me no more. But you see me: because I live, and you shall live. (John 14:19) He’s present every day in the Eucharist.


JoeT