[arcura]

sndbay,
You asked this question. The words are not from scripture.
"Fred, are you saying they were not led by the Holy Spirit?"
My answer was an emphatic NO!!
And I explained why.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

The church is a gathering of members, if they are consider one-ness in the communed gathering, it is that they each hold steadfast as Christian saints.
(1 Corinthians 1:2)

They believe in Christ Jesus as they are called by
1. One body
2. One Spirit
3. One hope
4. One Lord
5. One Faith
6. One Baptism
7. One Father above all, through all, and in us all

That's not a good answerer. You and your bunch gather over there, me and mine gather over here. How is that One? The Spirit tells your bunch one thing, mine another how is that One Spirit? You and yours have hope, me and mine have hope, how is that One hope?

I don't buy it. (Come to think of it, if you accept this disunity and I don't, how is that One?)

JoeT

[sndbay]

sndbay,
You asked this question. The words are not from scripture.
"Fred, are you saying they were not led by the Holy Spirit?"
My answer was an emphatic NO!!!.
And I explained why.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred you posted the following Quote, saying you are led by God, (Father Son, Holy Spirit), AND (HIS Church). So in truth you are not only led by the Holy Spirit, but also include being led by members that commune togther in HIS Church.

Reference your post

sndbay,
NO!
I am saying no such thing. I am lead by God who is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and His Church which the bible tells us is the bride of Christ and lead and inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Please do not try to put your words in what I post.
Thank you,
Fred

This post, also says that HIS Church is the bride of Christ. That statement is Not true according to scripture, the Word of God. I offered and posted scripture in proof for the edifying in Christ. This is to help you Fred, not to offend you in any method. I speak truth and offered you scripture in the Word of God.

Yes, The Church is a place of fellowship.
It is also a place of unity, prayer, worship, and learning.
We must remember that the first church members were recruited by the apostles and disciples of Jesus who lead, taught, and served them.
That is what The Church is supposed to do yet today.
Peace ans kindness,
Fred

Further more you posted [above] that the (first church) who are members, were recruited and led by the apostles and disciples and served the members. I can offer scripture that quotes the apostles saying they too like us who are in Christ, are led by the Spirit. They too followed Christ, and not man. HIS Church is not led by man's doctrine, but is led by the Spirit of Truth in the Word of God. We as members serve the Lord Jesus Christ who is the firstborn of the church.

We Love God above all things, and never leave our first love by following any other, but in one man the Lord Jesus Christ, the begotten Son of God who was sent to led the Way. The church is that of the firstborn Christ Jesus(Romans 8:29)



John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

This following scripture verse is speak of anyone thinking they can be the bread of life or that they can give the bread of life. Christ alone is bread of life.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.


We are the branches in Christ who is the viine. The vine feeds the branches. The Father in heaven will take away and He will also give to those that are fruitful. In all and through all it is God our Father the Divine Power in control. .

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

~Sincerely given in love, God's grace be with you

[sndbay]

I don't buy it. (Come to think of it, if you accept this disunity and I don't, how is that One?)

JoeT

There is only ONE! That is why we must stay awake to follow ONE!

Who do you follow?

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

~in Christ

[galveston]

Just a thought:

If Peter was the rock that the Church was established on, then the Church belongs to Peter, not Christ.

[sndbay]

Just a thought:

If Peter was the rock that the Church was established on, then the Church belongs to Peter, not Christ.

Matthew 16:6 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Review:2 Peter 1:16-18-19 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

The rock that Peter confessed was in Christ Jesus. Peter had just confessed "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"
Christ then said My Father has revealed this unto you Peter.

Christ continue in say to Peter, upon this rock, what rock? The rock Peter had just confessed. The firstborn church Christ Jesus.

Isaiah 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


2 Peter 1:1-2-3-4 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The church of the firstborn (Romans 8:29)](firstborn tranlation from prōtotokos in Christ)As members we are begotten again, (1 Peter 1:3) begotten again of Christ Jesus who was the firstborn.

Hebrew 12:23-24 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The church of the firstborn, is the church of Christ Jesus.

[sndbay]

It seems to me that there may be several reasons why Jesus established The Church.
Peace and kindness:),
Fred

This might be to difficult to understand because many on this forum speak against the knowledge concerning the new nature or new man which walks in righteousness. The divine nature that no longer under the law of sin, because he or she walks having the spirit, and able to fulfil the law. It is written: (Romans 8:1-2)

The church of Christ Jesus the firstborn, was established as (2 Peter 2:4) says to grant that each member might be gifted in accordance to God's divine power.

To those that obtain the precious ONE Faith as the apostle and disciples did, through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. We might be partakers of the divine nature, because we have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. The apostles were called just as we are called by the Word of God Christ Jesus, to follow.

As we follow the Word of God Christ Jesus, we grow in this divine nature that follows righteousness, because the divine power gives all diligence, adding to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. (2 Peter 1:5-6-7)

Results in following and in answering HIS call, we are begotten again of Christ Jesus and fruitful in knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

We needed the branch of righteousness, that was promised, we had to have Christ Jesus because we were all dead in our sins, and beguiled by satan. Christ has set us free from the curse. We have liberty but should not take the liberty in a manner which places ourselved in bondage again. Instead walk having the spirit, For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14)

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Not dead, We live in Christ, able to be raised as He was raised.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

[arcura]

galveston,
Not so.
The Church was established here on earth with Peter as the first leader of what Jesus called "MY CHURCH".
So it is His established to serve US.
So the bible say, so I believe.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

galveston,
Not so.
The Church was established here on earth with Peter as the first leader of what Jesus called "MY CHURCH".
So it is His established to serve US.
So the bible says, so I believe.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

[sndbay]

Paul teaches that the church of members is the Father in Heaven's House.
(The House of God)

Christ is the High Priest over the house of members.
Christ is the Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Hebrew 3:2 Who was faithful to Him that appointed Him, as also Moses was faithful in all His house.

Hebrew 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as HE who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.

Christ examples and idenifies Himself as a man that follows HIS Father in Heaven as the begotten Son of God. Christ being the firstborn(begotten of God) and the members that follow in Christ are begotten again of Christ.
(1 Peter 1:3)

Hebrews 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but HE that built all things is God.

[arcura]

sndbay,
I agree, but that does not change the fact that Jesus established HIS Church on earth with Peter as it's first leader.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay,
I agree, but that does not change the fact that Jesus established HIS Church on earth with Peter as it's first leader.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Decisions Decisons that is your's and mine is different

I boast not of Peter, but I boast of Faith (Romans 3:27)

The House of God belongs to our Father, Christ as man was the firstborn, the begotten Son of God. And Peter was begotten again of Christ. We desire to be begotten again of Christ raised from being buried in baptism with Christ.

Christ is who I follow.


1 Peter 1:3-4-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[arcura]

sndbay,
Just because I believe what the bible says about Peter and Jesus does NOT change the fact that I believe in faith and boast faith.
Nor the fact that I am begotten again of Christ Jesus.
Those are first and foremost to me.
It is also what I became a member of The Church established by Jesus because The Church also believes, lives, and teaches that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Just a thought:

If Peter was the rock that the Church was established on, then the Church belongs to Peter, not Christ.

Galveston, et al:

I get a little laugh out of this logic. Hopefully I can show why. I've been to 'grand openings' and building dedications almost my entire professional life. At the commemoration of the building all the Suits, architects, engineers, other technical people who took the dream of the owner – founder – and made it happen would be there. They stand around patting themselves on the back for the great job they did – and they did. They'll tell little stories how this one did something funny or stupid and all will have a great laugh – or they might argue over how it would have been better to raise a 30th floor over the south wing – another form of self-congratulating ejaculation. These same people, who you might say, 'made' it all possible, laud themselves. After all, whether owner had the wherewithal to do plan the building or construct the building, it was these Suits that made it all possible – after all, standing before them is the evidence in living brick and mortar of their wherewithal. But at the commemoration of the building what name is the building given? 10-years from now how will the building be known? How about 100-years from now? Do you know the name of the architect or engineer of the Chrysler building? His name is William Van Alen; why isn't the building known as the William Van Alen buildings? Or why don't we call it the “Joe-smart engineered building”, or how about the 'Joe the Contractor's building.'

In zeal to 'disprove' the Catholic claim of being the One and only One True Church of Jesus Christ this is what you're proposing. Let's call the Church Luther's Church, how about John's-main-Man Church or the Pilgrim's Church. A gloss of the New Testament is very clear, this is an ages old custom of naming buildings and organization after the founder - no matter where or who actually built the organization – the 'hired' help aren't the important people at the commemoration ceremony or in knowing the building - it's the founder that made it all possible. This is the same simple sense that's being conveyed when Christ says “That you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Christ 'the founder' is the cause of the CHURCH of JESUS which was built on Peter.

Thanks for the chuckle.


JoeT

[galveston]

When the Roman Catholic church starts to lead their people into being filled with the Holy Spirit, heal the sick, cast out devils, and produce disciples that live holy lives, then I will consider its' claim of being the Church that Jesus founded.

So far, I haven't seen any of that going on.

I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for credentials from any group that claims to be the Church.

I say the same about a lot of other denominations, so don't think I have singled out the Catholic church.

[arcura]

JoeT,
You got that very well right.
galveston,
Study some history please.
The Catholic Church is lead by the Holy Spirit and thus inspired promulgated the Holy Bible for the world to use.
Priests of The Church have healed the sick, thousands of them over the years.
The Catholic Church is well known for casting out devils via exorcism.
AND there are many disciples of Christ in The Church who do lead holy lives.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

I say the same about a lot of other denominations, so don't think I have singled out the Catholic church.

You have that right from what I trust as true according to the Word of God.

I do not judge the people(members) but by discernment of each denomination, and their teaching. Many members are asleep as scripture would say. They have fallen for lies, and are listening to the voice of man.

The Spirit of Truth spoken in the Word of God tells us Christ died to free us from sin. Yet most denominations teach their members, they are sinners. The death Christ suffered, is that we are washed of our sins, dead with Christ from sin. Confessed faith in Christ Jesus for what He has done, trusting we are no longer sinners, but children of God. Baptized to be buried with Christ, able to raise as Christ was raised. Right here and now, adopted by Our Father in Heaven, begotten again unto Christ Jesus. A good conscience toward God to do HIS will on earth as it is in heaven. Walking in the spirit with Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:1 Roman 8:4 Gal 5:16 Gal 5:24)


That is why we commune together in remembrance of Christ's body and bread. Rejoicing of HIS worthiness to set us free. (1 Corinthians 11:24-25)

Communion should not be done as a sinner that can continue to sin daily, and find rest on one day of the week. Nor is it said to crucify Christ over and over again.(Hebrews 6:6) This is the very reason people are sick in this world, because they commune not knowing the truth of Christ body and blood.
(1 Corinthians 11:29-30)

And too, those who pray to any other then Our Father in Heaven. We are told to always pray and worship in the Spirit of Christ Jesus to the Father. Why would you NOT understand this and choose to be blinded by men's doctrine.

Repent and follow Christ Jesus, hear HIS voice.

~in Christ

[arcura]

sndbay,
The Catholic Church prays only to God, but it does ask the saints to also pray. Just as you may ask a friend or relative to pray for you.
The Catholic faith is totally based on Holy Scripture and those who claim otherwise have always failed to prove that.
I know that for a fact for I was for many years a Protestant trying to prove it and I failed.
Therefore I became a Catholic.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay,
The Catholic Church prays only to God, but it does ask the saints to also pray. Just as you may ask a friend or relative to pray for you.,
Fred

Fred, I have many Catholic members who have confirmed that they pray to the saints for help. One example would be they pray to a certain saint for lost items.. ect

Supplication and worships for saints is not meant in praying to them or to make request to them.

Take for example when Paul said in (Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints) Paul was talking about praying for the saints that follow Christ in teaching the gospel, servants of God here on earth who are prosecuted.
Example: Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem

So Fred I would rebuke the prayer to saint, and edify in the name of Christ Jesus. We are to pray in the spirit of our Lord Jesus to the Father in Heaven. We have the liberty to do so in the spirit.

~in Christ

[galveston]

Let's look at the question of holy living.

I know that I have read on these threads that at least some Catholics (and others as well) do NOT believe that it is possible to live without sinning every day.

I don't know about Catholic teaching on this point, but there are some groups that actually tell their people that you cannot know whether you are saved or not until you leave this life.

If you do NOT know you are saved, then you are NOT. Salvation is received by faith, so if you do not believe you are saved, how can you be?

Proponents of this idea like this passage:

Rom 7:11-23
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(KJV)

They use this to say that Paul had a sin problem. They ignore the verses that follow immediately:

Rom 8:1
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(KJV)

Paul tells us that he does not walk after the flesh, so he does not have a sin problem.

God expects us believers to walk after the Spirit.