[tdubya1]

I am remodeling my guest house. While I am reasonably handy, I know nothing about plumbing. This remodel involves reconfiguring the bath, specifically moving the toilet and shower. The problem is that the house was built on a slab (6" concrete). I have removed the concrete for the new lines but began wondering what requirements (conventions) exist for turning corners etc. The toilet is moving approximately three feet so the plan was to run a 90 from under the toilet over to the original line and tie into it with another 90. Hopefully that makes sense. Is this acceptable? i.e. (2) 90's and a horizontal run of about three feet.

The other part of this is to tie the bathtub drain into the toilet drain close to the end of the new horizontal run for the toilet. Is the OK and where does the trap for the tub go. Is it possible to have it above the floor if I raise the tub up a corresponding amount?

Help,
Thomas

[speedball1]

Hey Tom, Since you posted both here and on AllExpets.com I'll answer both places. Unless it's necessary I don't use quarter bends, (90's) in drainage. Stay away from sharp bends especially "doglegs" like the one you're describing. Go with two eighth bends, (45"s) instead. If this were my job I would opt for a 2" 45 degree side inlet closet bend and tie the tub to that. The tub trap sets directly below the tub waste and overflow assembly. I guess you could put it above the floor line but why would you wish to do it? If you wish to raise the tub, fine, but keep the trap under the floor where you can connect to the drainage. Good luck, Tom

[labman]

I might amplify some of what Tom said. 90's aren't a big problem in pressure runs, only adding 5 diameters of the pipe to the length. The 4'' of pipe a 90 in a 3/4'' supply pipe would add is insignificant. In a 4'' drain pipe that is 20'' which can add up. 90's are great places for clogs too. Pipes don't have to run parallel to walls. Run from the toilet 45 degrees over to the old line, and connect with one 45. Just watch the alignment of the flange for the toilet. Most of your 3 and 4'' pipe come in drain fittings which have longer radiuses and are smoother inside.

Where ever you put the trap, consider access to it.

[tdubya1]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the insights but I think I have misunderstood your response. My hope was to come out of the bottom of the repositioned toilet with a 90, make a horizontal run over to the existing waste line (ie where the toilet flange is currently connected), cut off the existing flange and connect to it with another 90. My concern was that 90's are great places for clogs but what choice do I have? If I come out of the bottom of the toilet with a 45 I'll be heading downhill for 3 feet to connect to the existing waste line. Unless I'm missing something that means I will be 3' feet deep when I reach the existing waste line. There is no way I can dig a 3' deep trench and besides the waste line isn't that deep where I would be connecting to it. Connecting the shower is secondary. There my concern is.. is it OK to connect the shower drain directly to the toilet waste line so close to shower drain (in this case within a few inches of the trap. The second part of the tub question is how do I service the trap if it is covered over with concrete which would be the case if I didn't raise the tube up above the floor a corresponding amount. I think I got the answer to this question though when I read an earlier posting which suggested leaving a "dap out"…. 14x14 square hole in the ground with no concrete.

what do you think,
Thanks,
Thomas

[speedball1]

Forget the 90. You will come off the bottom of the repositioned toilet with a closet bend . You turn that closet bend 45 degrees towards the old toilet drain pipe and connect with a 1/8 th. Bend, (45)to that pipe. That will give you the correct elevation and keep you away from the future clogs you would have with 90's. I would tie the shower into the lavatory branch. That way it would be vented. As close as you wish to install the shower, I'm afraid the suction of the discharge form the toilet would suck the water right out of the trap. Code does not allow you to discharge a major fixture past a unvented minor one. As for your trap. Open a square in the cement ,(dap out) where the tub overflow and drain assembly are and connect the trap there. Do not cement over it.

[tdubya1]

Hey Tom,

Thanks again for the help. I think I have it now. What was confusing me was that I didn't know what a closet bend was or that it turned 90 degrees and I didn't think about using (2) 45's rather then a 90 where it connects to the old line.

Makes sense too the part about sucking the water out of the trap, but I was unaware that a shower is unvented. I went to check and although everything is under concrete, it appears not to be. It appears as well as though there is no trap on the old shower drain. Is this possible? If so what keeps the smell out??

Thanks again,
Thomas

[speedball1]

Your first 45 degree angle will be when you point the new closet bend at the old toilet branch. You will then connect with a 1/8th bend to that pipe. That way you will only need one 1/8th bend. Trust me, the shower was trapped and vented unless it was installed by the previous owner. Now I'M confused. You started your questions talking about the tub drain. Now It's morphed into a shower. Are we talking about two separate fixtures. If so do they both need to be tied in, trapped and vented? Or do we need a quick course in terms here. Please, if I use terms that you are not familiar with,(such as closet bend) call me on it right away and I'll be more then happy to explain. Cheers, Tom

[tdubya1]

Hey Tom,

Thomas here again. I think some of the confusion lies in the fact that I am trying to tie into the old waste line where it is vertical not horizontal. The old toilet sat next to an outside wall and the original waste line sweeps down and becomes horizontal somewhere under the foundation. There is no way I can reach the horizontal portion of the line so I am relegated to connecting to it somewhere along the vertical portion or the upper part of the sweep transition. This should still be possible however with a 45 and an appropriate fitting on the existing waste line. Or?

[tdubya1]

The room is 5' wide by 8' deep. Originally there was a shower stall (3' x 3') on the right side of the room against the far (outside) wall. Next to it sat the toilet also against the outside wall. I'm reconfiguring the room to replace the shower with a tub which will take up the entire 5 feet of the outside wall. That forced me to move the toilet into the room 3 feet and turn it 90 degrees so it will back up to the left hand inside wall. Next to that just to left as you enter the room will be a vanity. So that all piping is on the same (left) wall I need to move the drain for the old shower from where it is (which is approximately 18" from the right wall) to where it needs to be (a couple incjhes from the left wall.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,
Thomas

[tdubya1]

My ambition to tie the new tub drain line into the new waste line for the toillet is because if you can discern from the above explanation of the room configuration the new waste line for the toilet will past right by the drain for the tub. If I have to tie into the main branch below toilet again my hole is getting deeper because as I explained all of this tying in has to occur on the vertical portion of the original line because I can't access the horizontal portion.

Confusing you more or?

[tdubya1]

Hey Tom,

Since I'm relegated to running the horizontal run into the vertical portion of the existing waste line, couldn't I just use a "sanitary tee" and plug the top?

Thanks,
Thomas

[labman]

A picture is worth a 1000 words. Everybody knows the story about the 4 blind men and the elephant. Each one is feeling a different part and giving conflicting descriptions.

What I am seeing is the old toilet drain going straight down a little ways and then sweeping back and out through the foundation behind it. If you have enough vertical room, you can come out of new toilet with the closet bend, across, and into the vertical section. It would be best if you could make that bend two 45's with a short piece of pipe between. I doubt you could cut the old elbow in 2, and find a fitting to fit it. If everything is going to be under a new concrete floor under the tub, you want it right.

The new tub drain should be fairly close to the old shower drain was. If you can tie the new drain to the old one without too many elbows and horizontal runs, it might be the best idea. Again, don't use a 90 where two 45's will do. That way trap, vent, etc. whatever, if it worked before, it should still work.

[speedball1]

Here's a question I should have asked from the git go. What are the existing pipes made of? I'm guessing cast iron. You're trying to connect into the old closet bend. You wish to take a 1/4 bend,(90) and place it on top of the closet bend to get back to a horizontal run? If you do that where will be in regards to the floor line? It would seem to me that doing it that way I can see, 1, 2, 3, 4 90's counting two closet bends and your elevation will be too high. If I were faced with your problem I would take my reciprocating saw, (Saws All) and put a metal blade in it and cut the bend out of the closet bend . That will leave you with a short horizontal pipe that you can put a cast iron to PVC NO-Hub coupling on it and convert to PVC. Now you're horizontal and can 45 over to pick up the new PVC closet bend or a upright 90 with a short piece of PVC up for the closet stubout. If you have to take a chisel and chip out some of the foundation to attach the NO-Hub coupling, then that's what you'll have to do. Now on to the tub, and now a lavatory that just reared its head for the first time. Is this a existing fixture? Will it be moved? If it was there it's vented and that's the vent we'll use for your group. "My ambition is to tie the new tub drain line into the new waste line for the toilet." And like I said, as handy as it may be, you will still be discharging a major fixture past a unvented minor one. You can't do that. You're going to have to tie your tub back to the old shower line or run over and connect to the lavatory branch. It's too bad you can't break out the cement around the shower drain. Remove the old drain and use the existing old shower drain trap. That way you would be vented. Are you sure you can't reposition some walls and make that happen. If not you're going to have to break up some cement to get to the lavatory branch. Labman was right. If you had a digital camera you could take some pictures to show us. If that works for you my addy's [email protected] Regards, Tom

[tdubya1]

You guys are the best...

I would never have thought there would have been this much interest in helping me through this and I have to say that I really appreciate it.

Tom... I will send some photos.

In the mean time I will tell you that after further review I have come to the same conclusion re: using the old shower waste line. The only problem with doing so is... remember that I said the old shower was on the right side of the room against the outside wall and the drain for it therefore is about 18 inches from the right wall. Since I'm not willing to take up any more of the floor than is necessary I will have to rotate the tub 180 degrees (ie. Right hand fixtures vs left hand fixtures). This is a compromise since my original desire was to have all the supply lines on the left wall. Actually, there are supply lines existing on the right wall. They were there for the shower. But my ambition was to remove them because they run through the eves (attic) which is unheated (ie. I was hoping to eliminate the potential for freezing since the house sits empty most of the time.

Pictures to follow.

Thanks again,
Thomas

[tdubya1]

Now I will try to answer some of the questions in your last replys.

You both have it right regarding the toilet waste line. I want to come out of the new toilet with a closet bend (which will turn me 90 degrees)... run horizontal for about 3 feet and then somehow connect to the old existing (vertical) waste line. If I could do that I wouldn't have to go more than about a foot into the ground (ie. 6" of concrete and 6" of sand). If I have to go all the way to the main (horizontal) branch I will have to go down 2 to 3 feet and into the foundation.

The existing pipes are PVC. I wasn't suggesting to attach a 90 to the top of the old closet bend I was figuring I could cut it off a foot or so below the floor and connect to it there. But it doesn't turn 90 degrees it maybe turns 30 degrees before it connects to the main branch (I can see this when I look down past the old flange. Maybe it's a 45. The vanity is there already and has its own drain and vent. I don't know where that drain goes but since I'm not moving the vanity I am hoping that I don't have to disturb it.

Pics to follow.

Thanks again,
Thomas

[labman]

Send the picture to [email protected]. Until I see something in the picture different, it sounds like you cango ahead with your original idea, except start with the colset bend, which is designed not to clog much, and go over to the vertical, and if you can, use the two 45's. It may mean a little more digging right at the vertical. I like PVC, it is cheap and very forgiving. Still it won't take the abuse metal will.

[speedball1]

I agree with labman about the way you plan on picking up the new toilet.  So let me address the tub and shower.  If the  down turned  2" elbo  goes into a trap why not saw out the upturned elbo and couple to the horizontal pipe  and run over and drop the tub waste and overflow into another upturned elbo and a short stub up?  picture#59 shows me your layout pretty good.  Always consider the drainage first when you're laying out a job.  The waterpipe's the easy part.   While it may be easier to loop the supply lines overhead in the attic I would get a angle drill and take my lines through the studs to feed the new tub and shower valve.  Thomas, I really hate to get critical here but picture #71 shows me piping that couldn't have been installed by a plumber.  I got dizzy looking at all those elbows and offsets.  He installed shutoffs for the shower but didn't even leave a access to get to them. I would cut that nightmare back to the supplys,(are there any supplys coming out of the slab or do they all drop down from the attic?) and take them through the studs to the new position.  I would also do away with the shutoff valves and the need for a access hole by  purchasing a tub and shower valve with integral stops built into the valve. You might want to rent a electric jackhammer to help you open up the floor.   You're doing fine, keep us in the loop.  We're here as long as you need us.  Tom