[Owen]

Dear Sir--
I'm trying to investigate a drain problem and hope you can help:

Our 1500 sq ft house with 2 bathrooms is new construction in Oregon and we're still working out a few kinks, the most significant of which is the main plumbing drain. We are on a septic system. The plumbing drain line exits the house and runs forward 50' to the septic system (conventional drain field system.) Here's the problem:

Even though the system is completely new we periodically experience unexplainable backing up in the toilet closest to the end of the drain line (meaning that this toilet is the last fixture in the main drain line before it exits the house.) We also hear and see periodic air bubbles coming up from this toilet. We have tried to keep track of when this happens and why. We don't experience this in the other toilet or other fixtures.

First I suspected the toilet, removed it, reinstalled it, checked everything out, and frankly it's fine.

Following that, I've suspected the septic tank to be the problem. Last weekend we went through the outside piping that leads to the septic tank (50' piping) and snaked it and completely checked it with our septic installer. Everything checked out absolutely fine. We even ran the garden house into the cleanout and let it pour the length of the line into the septic tank and everything checked out fine. I'm satisfied that the septic system is not the problem, and I think the problem is "upstream" of the cleanout.

I observed that the problem occurs after we've started a load of laundry, and believe the laundry discharge is creating some sort of vacuum in the line. Sure enough, when running the laundry and peering down the outside drainline cleanout, I noticed that the laundry discharge tends to create an "air lock" or vacuum (or whatever the proper term is) in the drain line. To remedy, I disconnected the laundry discharge from its present standpipe and have it discharging to a deep sink in the laundry room. I hoped this would alleviate the problem. Unfortunately, when we do laundry, I still observe some "air lock" or vacuum created in the main drainline cleanout when the washer discharges. I'm stumped (and frustrated) and hope you can offer some wisdom or advice. The laundry discharge is moving quickly and efficiently through the drain line so I don't suspect clogs, but it is creating some sort vacuum. >:(

[speedball1]

Hi Owen, There are bubbles and there are gurgles. A bubbling indicates a partial clog or blockage in the line. A gurgle indicates a venting problem. Bubbles=pressure or blowback. Gurgles= vacuum or suction. I'm presenting both of them because I'm not there to see which is which so I'll take your word that it's pressure blowing back and not air being sucked back into your toilet. The reason it's worse when the washer runs is because there is no other fixture in your house that discharges with more pressure and voluum . You said, "I noticed that the laundry discharge tends to create an "air lock" or vacuum (or whatever the proper term is) in the drain line. " Please explain in more detail what happens at the cleanout when you discharge the washer. If the problem were in the house main or one of the branches you shouldn't see any action at the clean out other then a flow of liquid. I'm a little confused here. At the toilet there are bubbles, (blowback/ partial blockage), however at the cleanout you have vacuum/air lock (blocked vent). Can't be both, got to be one or the other. Does the toilet back up and over flow? When you ran a snake down the cleanout to the septic tank did you also drop the snake down the washer vent and put out enough snake to past the cleanout? If you can still contact the plumber ask if he used 1/4 bends instead of sweeps on the drainage? That would give you back pressure under a high volume discharge such as a washer puts out. I'm still not discounting a vent problem. If there were a partial blockage then the water would back up when it hit forcing air to back uo also but after the bubbles there's usually a overflow. If there's a vent problem the dischage will set up a vacuum and vent through the nearest trap. In this case it could be the trap in your toilet. So, no backups? No liquid gushing out of the tub or shower drain when the washer discharges? Does the cleanout bubble back when the washer discharges? I'll wait on your answer and reply ASAP. Refards, Tom

[Owen]

Thanks Tom--I'll try to explain exactly what I observe.

When the washer discharges and I observe through the cleanout, I see laundry water rushing by, then slowly backup (because it appears there's so much volume), then slosh back and forth, making an occasional slurping sound. When any other fixture is used (toilet, sink, etc) and I observe through the cleanout, I see the water rushing by with no backing up whatsoever.

I snaked from the cleanout to the septic tank and everything came out clean. I have not snaked the vent.

The toilet does not overflow. What happens in these situations is that when you flush, even if just water, it doesn't go anywhere, just fills to the top of the bowl. A few bubbles come up and the problem clears itself after awhile. As a temporary fix, we try to just use the laundry late at night when no other fixtures will be used for awhile.

I don't know if the plumber used sweeps or 1/4 bends, but given the layout of the piping, and the location of the cleanout relative to the septic tank, I suspect he used 1/4 bend after the cleanout. Thanks--Owen

[speedball1]

Have you opened up the septic tank to see if it needs to be pumped?  If the problem were upstream from the cleanout then you would not have a backup at the cleanout.  Do you still have the problem with the toilet when the cleanout's open? I hate to mention this considering the house was just built but if the filter bed/drainfield were not percolating and the discharge load was too heavy for it to disperse the outflow of the washer the tank would  fill and send a back blow back up the line.  The filter bed could be draining enough for normal discharge but a high volume discharge could just choke it enough so it would send a blow back up the line.  One more time.  If things were right in your septic system there would be no backup at the cleanout.   Please keep me in the loop on this one.  You're one of the more interesting problems I've had lately.  keep giving me all these little facts and your observations  and I'll try to build a case.  When we started I wasn't sure it wasn't a vent problem but you have taken the problem out of the house,( unless you tell me something in your next post that puts it back inside.) PS.  If there were sharp 1/4 bends in the line to the septic tank that would do it also.  Cheers Tom 

[Owen]

Tom--haven't opened the tank, but here's what I did with the septic installer last weekend (because I suspected the septic system to be the culprit):

We dug enough dirt so we could observe about 3' of pipe entering the septic tank, then we opened the cleanout and inserted a garden hose. We ran the garden hose for 30 minutes to see if we could "overfill" the system/drainfield. Everything drained fine and we could hear the water passing through the line into the tank (which was simultaneously satisfying and frustrating.)

To answer your question, when the cleanout is opened, the toilet does not bubble.

My thought about the washer was that it's so much water rushing so fast through the system that when you watch it go past the cleanout it zooms by, then sloshes back and forth making the occasional slurping sound. It seems that this problem is alleviated when I have the cleanout open, but I'm trying not to "overanalyze" this and miss a different problem (for example, others I have asked have blamed it on low-volume toilets, etc.)

[speedball1]

A garden hose doesn't have the pressure and volume that a washer pump can put out so that test doesn't tell you much.? It's not in the vents , you steared me away from there. Congratulations! ;D You have nailed it down to one place. The fact that the toilet doesn't bubble when the cleanout's open tells me that the problem's in the septic system. The air that would normally bubble up the john is now venting through the open clean out. That could only happen if there was a backup downstream of the cleanout. As for the 1.6 gallon lo flush toilets, our problem is a heavy volume of water rushing down the pipe too fast. Any how it gave me a chuckle. You will find your problem somewhere between the cleanout and the end of the drain field. Good luck and I hope I've helped some. Have a great week end! Me? I'm going to the beach and work on my tan. Cheers, Tom 8)

[starfaz]

:-/
I am having a *similar* problem. My clothes washer overflows in the laundry room and sends water up the vent pipe to the roof. The Roto Rooter (RR) people used their auger thing to clean the drain pipe all the way to the septic tank. He said he felt no obstructions. However, it still flooded the laundry room and sent water to the roof after he "cleaned" the line. RR didn't charge me, since they couldn't find/fix the problem. My neighbor suggested that a tree root may be pushing on the drainline, ever so slightly, to cause it not to have enough "fall" and a bubble is impeding the water flow. So now I am considering a tree surgeon to rip all the trees out by their roots and letting the drainline raise back up. Is there method to this madness?

[labman]

I seriously doubt a tree root pushing the line out of place would cause the problem. Look at the trap under your sink, and the way the water has to go down, up, and back down again. Did the rotorooter guy start right at the washer drain, or an outside clean out? If so, have him come again and start at the washer.

You can cut down a tree and even have the stump ground away, but most of the tree roots will still be there. I don't think anybody can completely remove all of a tree's roots. I would certainly wait until tanned Tom makes it back from the beach and gives his opinion. It would be one thing to sacrifice the trees if it worked. I am afraid you would be out time, money, the trees, and still have the drain problem. Reread the other posts, and study the problem some more. At least you roof should be water proof.

[speedball1]

Hey Star, A sunny hello from Florida. Lab man was right. I played hooky and spent the day at the beach. Sarasota's beautiful this time of year. Most RR men aren't regular plumbers. They just snake out the sewer line from the house to the street or the septic tank to remove roots. If you had tree roots in the sewer line to the septic tank then ALL of your fixtures would be affected. It sounds like you have a blockage in the branch line that drains the washer. This blockage will be located downstream from the vent in the branch line. Did the RR man run a snake down from the roof vent. Because if he didn't then you will still be left with the blockage. Get a man out there to run a snake down the vent and break up the clog and send it on through. Let me know how you make out. Cheers, Tom

[starfaz]

Hi Tom,

The RotoRooter (RR) guys came back out. They used a camera to check the drain line and the vent to the roof. The vent was OK, but the drain line was clogged about 50 feet out from the house. Apparently, the drain line didn't connect to the septic tank after all. It was a "graywater" line that ran independently. He said that in our area, it was OK, but in some places that was illegal. He connected the washer to the main septic tank line at the house, capped off the old "graywater" drain line and even pumped the septic tank. He did all of this for $200, which seemed cheap to me, but I didn't question it. Everything seems to be working fine so far and I'm glad I didn't have all the trees ripped out. THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR YOUR ADVICE!! Too many times people tell me things just to charge me more and I like having enough knowledge to tell when their lying, or not. Thanks again!

[speedball1]

Hi Star, Thanks for keeping us in the loop. :o Ya got off cheap ;D. Glad things worked out for you :-* No thanks necessary. ::) An time Labman or I can help out just let us know. 8) Cheers, Tom

[David F]

Toilet in MBR doesn't flush most of the time. Water comes up to the lip and stops. Slowley it goes down (10-15 min) We've been in the house for 3 years; it is 13 years old, on a slab with a septic tank and lift station.
The problem started a year ago with occasional problems and sometimes serious bubbling. We had the septic Tank pumped several weeks ago but no change. Yesterday a plumber routed from the toilet to the inspection port and from the port to the septic tank. He said it couldn't be the vent because the shower and the sink drain freely. He then said it had to be the toilet. I replaced the toilet but it still won't flush. Help!

[speedball1]

Toilet in MBR doesn't flush most of the time. Water comes up to the lip and stops. Slowley it goes down (10-15 min) We've been in the house for 3 years; it is 13 years old, on a slab with a septic tank and lift station.
The problem started a year ago with occasional problems and sometimes serious bubbling. We had the septic Tank pumped several weeks ago but no change. Yesterday a plumber routed from the toilet to the inspection port and from the port to the septic tank. He said it couldn't be the vent because the shower and the sink drain freely. He then said it had to be the toilet. I replaced the toilet but it still won't flush. Help!

Hi David,
Sorry about the delay, Did the plumber pull the toilet and run his snake down the closet bend to make sure the branch wasn't partially clogged?

[tommytman]

I had a problem with a cloged washer drain line once... The washer would put out so much water it would back up and when I tried to duplicate this with a garden hose I could not (garden hose flow<washer flow)... I know it sounds weird but it is true. Eventually the drain blocked up completely and I called RotoRooter.

[Siscoe]

My home is about 11 months old. It is a 2 story with 2 full baths upstairs and a half bath downstairs. We are on a sceptic tank. We have had some problems off and on with bubbling in the downstairs toilet and the water draining out. It always seemed to fix it self. Just recently it started happening more often and seems to be getting worse. I noticed about 3 weeks ago that the toilet bubbles and makes noises when someone is using the shower upstairs. Then it started filling up with water to the top when ever water drained anywhere in the house (shower, sinks, washer). First it bubbles, then it fills, then it slowly receeds all the way down to empty. After awhile, it fills to normal. Now it is doing it if you use other toilets too. It has only filled over once, while my husband was showering yesterday. I heard water rushing and went to the bathroom and saw it rushing over. In addition, someimes this toilet will work fine and other times it backs up when flushed and doesn't completely flush. I also noticed yesterday that it filled with brown stuff a couple of times ( I assume that was sewage). Anyway, neither my husband or I know anything about plumbing and we have no idea what is wrong. Is there a blockage or an air pressure problem (a neighbor suggested this) or a sceptic problem? Please help.

[speedball1]

My home is about 11 months old. It is a 2 story with 2 full baths upstairs and a half bath downstairs. We are on a sceptic tank. We have had some problems off and on with bubbling in the downstairs toilet and the water draining out. It always seemed to fix it self. Just recently it started happening more often and seems to be getting worse. I noticed about 3 weeks ago that the toilet bubbles and makes noises when someone is using the shower upstairs. Then it started filling up with water to the top when ever water drained anywhere in the house (shower, sinks, washer). First it bubbles, then it fills, then it slowly receeds all the way down to empty. After awhile, it fills to normal. Now it is doing it if you use other toilets too. It has only filled over once, while my husband was showering yesterday. I heard water rushing and went to the bathroom and saw it rushing over. In addition, someimes this toilet will work fine and other times it backs up when flushed and doesn't completely flush. I also noticed yesterday that it filled with brown stuff a couple of times ( I assume that was sewage). Anyway, neither my husband or I know anything about plumbing and we have no idea what is wrong. Is there a blockage or an air pressure problem (a neighbor suggested this) or a sceptic problem? Please help.

First off it's not a "air pressure problem", you have a partial blockage. What you have to do now is isolate it. Locate and open the sewer clean out, hint: It's on the same side as your septic tank within 18" of the house foundation. It may be just under the dirt but ,trust me, It's there.
Now flush a upstairs toilet and check the clean out, it should have a good flow past it. If not and the downstairs toilet bubbles then the blockage is inside the house in the main and it will have to be snaked from the roof vent.
If the cleanout overflows then one of two things. The line from the cleanout's to the septic tank's got a partial block and should be snaked from the clean out or the tank is full and needs to be pumped. Good luck and let me know what you find

[Siscoe]

Speedball1,

Thanks for the reply. I have another question. Are you talking about the round green cover that is in the ground (almost looks like alarge disc or maybe a trash can cover) or are you talking about the white pipe that sticks up with the unscrewable cap? Pardon me for my plumbing ignorance, I don't know the names of any of these things or why they are there. My mother suggested openning the white pipe to see if there was blockage and said to get a "plumbing gun" and shoot it in that pipe. Does that sound right? We did open that pipe and stuff was at the top and came out. If we flush or use any plumbing upstairs or use the dishwasher or washing machine downstairs, etc. the downstairs toilet bubbles and water flows out of this pipe. If we flush the downstairs toilet it does not flush very well and water does not flow out. Should we try the plumbing gun? Is there anything we should know first? Should we open the green thing?

[speedball1]

Speedball1,

Thanks for the reply. I have another question. Are you talking about the round green cover that is in the ground (almost looks like alarge disc or maybe a trash can cover) or are you talking about the white pipe that sticks up with the unscrewable cap? Pardon me for my plumbing ignorance, I don't know the names of any of these things or why they are there. My mother suggested openning the white pipe to see if there was blockage and said to get a "plumbing gun" and shoot it in that pipe. Does that sound right? We did open that pipe and stuff was at the top and came out. If we flush or use any plumbing upstairs or use the dishwasher or washing machine downstairs, etc. the downstairs toilet bubbles and water flows out of this pipe. If we flush the downstairs toilet it does not flush very well and water does not flow out. Should we try the plumbing gun? Is there anything we should know first? Should we open the green thing?

It's not the green cover. That sounds like the top of a propane tank . It's the white PVC pipe with a cap. One of two things. (1) you have a blockage downstream from the clean out and it will have to be snaked using a sewer machine,(plumbing gun) or (2) your septic tank is full and needs to be pumped. Since you have a newer home I would have to select (1). You may rent a sewer machine from your local Rent All. Ask for a Ridgid K-60 or equivalent. Good luck, Tom

[Siscoe]

Speedball1,

Thanks again for the reply. We are going try fixing it today. I'll let you know how it goes. BTW - is there anything special that we can buy to pour on the stuff that came out of the pipe to help kill the bacteria before cleaning it up? It is probably just wishful thinking on my part but I have to ask any way.
As for the green lid, we do not have a propane tank. Our home is alll electric. Our neighbors all have the same lid, actually 2 lids (I think our 2nd one got covered up when they tried to regrade our lot to fix the divots their trucks left). Both lids are located in the area of the sceptic tanks. That is why I though they had something to do with our sceptic.

One more question, we were recently told by a couple of people that all the rain we have had lately might be causing our sceptic problems, has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?

Thanks for all the help. This is a great website with lots of great info.

[speedball1]

Speedball1,

Thanks again for the reply. We are going try fixing it today. I'll let you know how it goes. BTW - is there anything special that we can buy to pour on the stuff that came out of the pipe to help kill the bacteria before cleaning it up? It is probably just wishful thinking on my part but I have to ask any way.
As for the green lid, we do not have a propane tank. Our home is alll electric. Our neighbors all have the same lid, actually 2 lids (I think our 2nd one got covered up when they tried to regrade our lot to fix the divots their trucks left). Both lids are located in the area of the sceptic tanks. That is why I though they had something to do with our sceptic.

One more question, we were recently told by a couple of people that all the rain we have had lately might be causing our sceptic problems, has anyone ever heard of anything like this before?

Thanks for all the help. This is a great website with lots of great info.

The green caps are the inspection ports for your septic tank. Ours are cement down here. Try full strength bleach for the smell. Put a auger tip on the cable when you snake the line. It would be prudent on your part to open up a inspection port on the septic tank and check to see if it's full and needs to be pumped. If the tank was full it would give the same symptoms as a blocked line. Good luck, Tom