[Skell]

I have to agree with Val here.

I will admit though that there is definitely a trend of people that cheat, continuing to do so. And it does have to do with them justifying there behavior. There is something there that makes them think it is OK as long as they don't get caught.

But people can change. We have all said it here before. I here everyone say it when we get a young poster in the teens worried about spending their life with someone. People tell them they will be different people in 5, 10 and 20 years time then they are now.

That's changing.

Although not a cheater, I am a completely different person now to the one that posted here 7 months or so ago.

Different outlook on life. Different outlook towards relationships. Different outlook towards myself.

I would say that my behavioral pattern has changed. I think I have shown an ability to change.

Surely this could be applied to a cheater. Im not saying though that it wouldn't take a strong willed and determined person top do so.

Much like it must take an unbelievably strong person and soul to fight a drug addiction. But we see this happen all the time. Why not a cheater.

I think it would be sad world if it was deemed impossible for people to change.

[Geoffersonairplane]

Perhaps it is not so much about changing but more about learning the difference between what is right and what is wrong..

But then again, I suppose in a way that is changing, changing your thought patterns and changing your behaviour and morals.

So I suppose change is needed...

[valinors_sorrow]

And I think the motivation to say "once...always" has more to do with how people don't put responsibility on the cheater or good grief, even defend and enable them! (which I am NOT doing, btw) In their naïve, steeped-in-denial, and terrible mishandling of cheaters-- people let more hurt and damage occur and trust far far too easily over and over again. They contribute to the problem, and help cheaters to justify their actions. Stupidity like that is a horse of an entirely different color though that indeed calls for solutions (like more reality, honesty and integrity for starters) but the wholesale labeling of cheaters as permanent isn't one of them.

I like the old "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach. It is important to me to give someone a fighting chance. And for those who cannot or will not change their destructive ways, I say to them, "Adios, look me up when you get this handled and if that is never I understand." And that goes for all kinds of destructive behavior, not just cheaters. I think where it gets dicey is in trying to predict if this or that person will change and only those with a very front row seat, their eyes open and their feet firmly planted in reality are in a good position to evaluate that, frankly.

[Sentra]

I think that phrase isn't really fair, because people who have never cheated on anyone can if they get the urge AND desire to. And although a leopard can't change its spots, it can walk a different path to new territory. Faith in the impossible, is basically what is needed (sometimes) in the hopes that someone can change their ways, in my opinion. And it IS possible if the person means it genuinely, not because they feel guilty. But because they WANT to change, they WANT to be different and they DON'T want to hurt people anymore.

But for those that do it and don't give a damn about changing or who they hurt in the process: You can just go straight to hell.:)

[aqua@home]

This has been very exciting for me. I like how Sentra showed an example of someone who doesn't cheat changing.

Another thought came to mind. I once heard that those who are abused, abuse people. This is completely wrong. It's just that the norm is more that to become an abuser, most have been abused. See the difference? Those who have been abused yet never abuse are making a choice. One does not have to lead to the other. I know it's a stretch but I think that is what I think about cheating. It can happen once, but does not necessarily mean it will again. I know that it may be more likely but it doesn't have to be.

PEOPLE CHANGE!

BTW... you all have so much good information to share.

[Wildcat21]

Yes - abused people - espcially when young - tend to abuse unless they seek help. Not all do. MOST abuse is actually VERBAL which is just as bad or worse.

People can heal and change - most DO NOT know any better - which is sad.

Most cheater come from abuse etc.

Anyone say what ever they want - but I know from studies the cheater will eventually cheat again - it's I na gene - the ycan't help it - they justify it - the ydon't have the proper boundries.

I really feel cheating isn't necessarily a CHOICE - somehting is deeply rooted in the cheater to do something like that - especially to someoen they may love.

[Geoffersonairplane]

Maybe cheating is a POWER thing for the cheater in the relationship.

[Sentra]

Yep, like they are trying to establish their dominance in decision making to where they almost say, "I have the guts to cheat, therefore its my right."

[talaniman]

Anyone can change. But cheating creates victims and that's where my sympathies lie. They are the ones who need help more in my mind.

[Geoffersonairplane]

I cheat!

But only while playing cards!

I think I have the strength to change!

Sorry, I had to put a bit of humour into this.. I apologise...

[valinors_sorrow]

Well as Geoff illustrated so well, I think we have a sematics difference here. There are several kinds of people who cheat, lie, etc. I contend that Wildcat is right about one category of them. There are chronic seemingly incurable cheaters who will not stop. They are psychologically hotwired to require chase and conquest over and over. There are also chronic liars too - pathological, its called. My brother is one - married seven times at last count. (I am not kidding when I say I come from a dysfunctional family LOL) There are people so sick that they will not seek help, they even fear help and the damage they do is pretty tragic. Some of them are sociopaths - lacking any conscience and seem to have been born that way. But I still think its too easy to prematurely and especially without good science lump others in with all of that. Its called lack of discernment and I can appreciate how hard discernment of this type is to come by firsthand. I only have what discernment I have by way of having survived some tremendous things. M. Scott Peck (author of The Road Less Traveled) wrote a whole book called People of The Lie, a fascinating read about those who cannot or will not be helped and how the science of psychology struggles to deal with them. So if the therapists are struggling, that leaves us without a clear picture too. I don't believe the cheater Wildcat speaks of is all cheaters though - that's too prejudicial for me and reality speaks differently to me than that.

[Geoffersonairplane]

Well as Geoff illustrated so well, I think we have a sematics difference here. There are several kinds of people who cheat, lie, etc. I contend that Wildcat is right about one category of them. There are chronic seemingly incurable cheaters who will not stop. They are psychologically hotwired to require chase and conquest over and over. There are also chronic liars too - pathological, its called. My brother is one - married seven times at last count. (I am not kidding when I say I come from a dysfunctional family LOL) There are people so sick that they will not seek help, they even fear help and the damage they do is pretty tragic. Some of them are sociopaths - lacking any conscience and seem to have been born that way. But I also think its easy to prematurely and especially without good science lump others in with all of that. Its called lack of discernment. M. Scott Peck (author of The Road Less Traveled) wrote a whole book called People of The Lie, a fascinating read about those who cannot or will not be helped and how the science of psychology struggles to deal with them.

I don't really cheat at cards.. LOL

I love this answer though Val, I was going to spread the rep, but it won't let me at the moment! This is weird, I was just telling Wap how down I feel today thinking about my ex and yet, here I am spreading my humour.. Perhaps it's just my way of dealing with it.

[valinors_sorrow]

I don't really cheat at cards..LOL

I knew that ;) LOL

And you might meditate briefly on all the things you have to be grateful for to help counteract that downer -- you can start with how much you contribute here too! As Martha says, "it is a good thing." :)

[Wildcat21]

"Maybe cheating is a POWER thing for the cheater in the relationship."

I agree with that a lot!! Like they can at least control thing - OR cheat first - or at least they were the ones who cheated and were not cheated on.

I think these peopl feel - well I'll screw up these relationship anyway - or as one gal told me "One on the way out, one right now, one for the future" - I ra nfro mthat woman!

There are MANY people who ru ntheir relationships as "Mr. pr Ms. Right nOw" and are always looking and only LOVE the initial spark.

[talaniman]

You made me think Val, and since a professional can't tell the Hardcore from the oops bad mistake, then I have concluded to stay away from cheaters for my own protection and see that no matter if they are the hardcore, or the oops, they still impact peoples lives in a negative way, so my vote is the hell with them until after they have changed We can only clean up the mess after.

[aqua@home]

Well... I guess what it boils down to for me, is who the person was who cheated, why they cheated and their character now. This has been very insightful. I have definitely learned a lot. I know that not only do cheaters change, but so do the victims. Thank you for that.

BTW... I agree with Geoff (page 2), there should be no third chances.

[Wildcat21]

I still do not think cheaters change. I think it has to do with their upbring and how their parents acted - they play out what their parents did. I also think it's in their genes - some how justify it.

[valinors_sorrow]

LOL And I still believe there are both kinds and that with discernment it is often possible to tell one from the other. But discernment like that doesn't exactly grow on trees, as my nana used to say -- it takes seeing things in a realistic light and taking the world as it is which aren't bad skills to have, frankly!

[aqua@home]

Upbringing? What? That is crazy. We all make choices in spite of our upbringing. My dad cheated and that doesn't mean I will or won't. I can agree that our experiences change us. I could see what it did to my family, and therefore choose not to cheat. I could also have figured that out without the experience too. We have to take responsibility for our actions.

I guess I will have to agree to disagree with you Wildcat.

I like your Nana's saying Val.