[UnBeautifuL]

I wanted to recommend you doing 'The Love Dare' as well. It is based off the movie Fireproof, I don't understand why more counselors don't recommend this to their clients! Even if you don't get results right away, keep working at it, it'll change your life. I started this journey, but being my husband is in the military and gone often, I haven't completed it.

The Love Dare Official Site: Get the book from the movie Fireproof

[dustdevil]

Thanks for the book recommendation. I read the first few pages of the sample. It seems like a good book. Unfortunately it's for couples in a different stage than we're at.

She never tells me when she's upset or why. Or almost never. I need to get better at reading between the lines.

Therapist said to take asking her to come home, and fatherhood discussions off the table with her for now. The homework the therapist gave her was to bring up issues in the past, so that I can understand and empathize with the over-arching theme of her hurt and for me to keep a journal of my emotions throughout the day, and other peoples emotions that I notice, so I can be more emotionally observant.

She's not too keen on talking to me outside of therapy. I guess best case scenario is she contacts me once this week in between sessions. It hurts when I see her on Yahoo messenger, and she chooses not to speak with me (I don't initiate contact now).

Part of me feels that she's already left, and that she's just going to therapy for me to understand why she left, and to not really work on things. The other part of me thinks that with therapy, her feelings of hopelessness in the situation will wane, and that she might eventually show a renewed interest.

She feels that she had given me ample opportunities in the past to change, and doesn't think that my attempts now are genuine. I told her that I was too immature in the past, and now that I've hit rock bottom, that I must work on change. The therapist told her that she was probably being insincere to think that things are incapable of changing for the better.

Things she's said recently, before the last therapy session:

"
I want to have my own life, free of obligation. I want to be able to make the best possible decisions for me and no one else

i don't want to lose you completely but its wrong for me to hold on after this point

its so hard, i'm so sorry i cannot make this easier, can we please still be friends? if somehow thing were different between us I would not close my heart to it

"

I took those to mean 'it's over', but why is she still going to therapy??

[talaniman]

Go through the process, and get some insights, so you can learn. Otherwise leave her alone and work on yourself. Its hard going through these changes but its necessary for you to plan to deal with what you have in front of you and that means making a life for yourself, no matter what she does or how long it takes.

I see this as over, for now any way, but that doesn't mean you just sit stuck, as I'm sure you can look around and identify important things for yourself you need to do.

[dustdevil]

Threads merged

A big issue in my counseling with my wife, aside from my lack of empathy (I'm getting good at giving it) is that she very much wants kids.

When asked, I would tell her that I want a stable, good job, and to buy a house first.

At the time, I didn't fully understand the whole biological clock thing. So I imagined that women could have kids until they were 50 (menopause) without issue, giving plenty of time for perfect house and job.

Then I did some research and discovered that things start to wind down after about 35. We're both 26, been together for 7 years. After I learned this, I wrote her a letter (We're seperated), and told her that the house and the perfect job are wants, and not needs, and that I'm now OKAY with having kids before those things, since I realize that there isn't a 'perfect time'.

But the issue is, that she very strongly desires kids, but I don't CRAVE them. I said I'm open to the idea of having them, and I'm OKAY with having them, but I don't crave and obsess over having them.

I know that we have to work out the rest of the relationship first before ever having kids, but since this is a dealbreaker for her, this needs to be resolved first.

6 years ago, when I created my myspace profile, I put 'does not want kids', even though I don't ever recall ever telling her that I didn't want any. She flipped out when I changed the status to 'someday' about 2 weeks ago. She thinks that I'm not being genuine, and that I'm just catering to her desires.

I wouldn't mind the white picket fence, the family and all that stuff. If she ever got pregnant, I'd fully embrace it. I'm just having a hard time with the fact that I don't CRAVE it as much as she does. Part of me thinks that it's not normal for guys to CRAVE them, that the guys just really appreciate the kids after they come.

Her best friend, is a guy that she always talks on the phone with (he now lives 1,000 miles away), and he has 3 children with 3 different mothers, and LOVES kids and lives with his mom because he can't support anyone. Part of me thinks that he's her role model for how guys should be.

Am I just crazy?

[dustdevil]

On another note, my wife thinks I hate kids, because I complain about crying babies on planes, or when someone lets their kid loose in a store and it punches me in the leg.

I AM afraid of being one of over half my friends who are divorced with kids, but this is a risk for everyone who has kids.

Both of my parents divorced and remarried three times. I didn't really have a father at home after age 5. Both her parents are still together, and she is an only child.

[stevetcg]

I hate OTHER people's kids, but mine are the center of the world. I don't find that at all unusual. You raise your children to behave the way you expect them to. Others do not...

Your desire for kids is what it is. I suspect that it will change in a few years. You are only 26. While its true that there is a biological clock and 35 is the *magic* number, it doesn't mean that she cannot have kids into her 40s. However... at 26, 9 years is a LONG time before she hits 35.

My advice: tell her that you need to get your relationship stable before ANYTHING else. If she is unwilling to do that without a child, you are probably better off cutting and finding someone that is willing to love you for who you are, not what biology you might be able to contribute to her issues.

Edited to add: I always wanted kids 'someday'. Once one showed up, I realized someday was yesterday.

[talaniman]

Your attitude is pretty typical, as I didn't CRAVE kids either.

She made me do it, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Seriously I see a disconnect in communications, and maybe she has a inferiority complex, for whatever reason, and feels overshadowed, and ignored, because she doesn't seem very forthcoming when it comes to communicating on an intellectual level, but it seems she works on an emotional level, and you can't relate very well. That just what I see from your other post. Its very early in the process, though, and I can tell you its you that will have the most adjusting to do.

Just wondering if she is an youngest child, and what kind of household she comes from?

[dustdevil]

I'm an engineer, she answers phones. She's certainly not dumb, but I know that I make her feel stupid. (I'm working on it). I need to agree and validate her opinions more instead of waxing philosophical. (I'd look up the movie ratings before agreeing to watch a movie, or egg her on to debate a point, rather than just agreeing).

Although I try to immensely value her opinion about anything regarding the house. Anytime we shop, I'll get her approval before buying anything. (She thinks the opposite, she thinks that I'll just argue until I get what I want at the store, and that I'm not really 'asking' her. I can see it both ways)

She's the only child. Her parents had her when they were ~25. She was very goth in high school, antisocial, not really hanging out with friends, kind of just sitting by herself during PE (we'd come by and visit her however).

Her parents love her very much, and sold their house TWICE to be closer to us (an hour away now). They're the best in-laws a person could ask for, they're very emphasizing, giving, patient, they're flawless. (Although they won't talk to her about any of the separation stuff while she's living with them)

[xoxaprilwine]

You are not crazy. You're a guy, you want to ensure the child is in a financially secure/stable home physically and emotionally. You are not sure if you can be a father right now and this is a general concern with most men... you acknowledge that and if she did become pregnant then you said you would embrace it. You never said absolutely no... your just saying not right now. A separation occurred because of this? If so, then this needs to be resolved and the relationship itself is the one that needs some construction and stability prior to children.

My husband thought the same way and honestly, with my first I didn't know what to expect either... what I found out with my first was babies are a lot of responsibility... sleepless nights, days of not taking showers, wearing joggers, putting myself last, breast feeding then buying formula (if need be), diapers, wipes, food, clothing, accessories... they add up... I think I spent over $5,000 just buying everything in anticipation for the baby and everything the baby will need for the first year and first months supplies. Having children is a serious decision and it takes two active, responsible, loving and caring parents to raise them.

Just so you know, we didn't buy a home or anything before we had our baby... we rented... but that wasn't stable enough for me either... once the baby gets there though... so does the desire to provide, save and plan to buy a home. Usually, a baby is the reason and a push to do what you want to, to be a better person, desire success, to be a responsible parent, spouse, teacher and provider.

Work on your relationship and don't let your parents experience give you fear for the "D" word. My parents have been together for over 35 years and my hubby's parents split but he sees how stable my parents are and they remain a great support and example for him. It sounds like you both will have to work on communicating effectively... not assuming that you know what the other person is thinking and feeling (after 7 years... still... don't make that assumption). Ask and talk.

[talaniman]

She sounds like an only child, and a bit sheltered. Don't want to say spoiled, but its evident she doesn't "adjust" to changing circumstances well.

[dustdevil]

Gah. I'm so frustrated.

I see it as, y'know, we can sit down, talk, straighten things out and figure out what we want to do.

She questions my commitment to self improvement, and how this is different than before when she's complained about stuff, and I've changed for a week or two, then went back to myself.

It's not something I can argue or anything, it's just something I have to SHOW, it's a trust thing.

Asked her to go costume shopping with me after work, but she shot me down, she doesn't want to run late for an evening with her friends after work.

I can't kiss my wife, I can't hug my wife, I can't see my wife.

She's in another city doing her thing, and I'm in another city doing my thing. And the thought that she could be so sick of me to not want to see me is frustrating.

If she's that sick of me, then why doesn't she leave me?

If she thinks there's a chance, then why isn't she actively working on anything?

She spent the weekend with some coworkers and told me about it. One other female, and a bunch of stranger male coworkers, all in a log cabin at the beach playing drinking games.

That broke my heart. The thought of my wife with strange men, drunk, possibly having sex. I don't think she was sleeping with anyone.

I'm not a saint either, I'm hanging out with a platonic female friend, but we'd never get sexually intimate with each other. So it'd be a double standard for me to tell my wife not to do anything.

Banged a baseball bat on the ground for a few minutes in my backyard to try to relive some anger/frustation.

I go from feeling of hopelessness, which is comforting, to limbo, which I just feel sad and cry, to hopefullness which is also comforting. I hadn't cried in 8 days.

I know the best thing to do is to embrace the status quo, to go out and have fun. My best friend is going into depression and starting to avoid supporting me because it's affecting him being around all this drama.

But to know that my wife is only 5 minutes away, while I sit at home, unemployed all day, with nothing to bide my time with while she's 5 minutes away at work, and the feeling of rejection and hopelessness. So frustrating.

I just want to say s**t or get off the pot. Divorce me or come back. I know I have more patience than that however. I'm not ready for any ultimatums or rocking the boat.

We had such wonderful talks in person and on the phone in the last week. I was empathizing, and active listening, and agreeing with her opinion. I was doing *ALL* the right things. Sure, our conversations are progress. After therapy I got a hug from her, and she made that 'moan' noise of satisfaction. It was the best feeling in the world, hugging my wife, and then the sadness that filled in when she 'had to go'.

So frustrated/sad/angry.

[xoxaprilwine]

If she is now hanging out with other people... telling you all about it - she is deliberately upsetting you. What would happen if you told her about your new friend? So, it would be okay for her to party with coworker men and you not to have a casual friend, right? Chances are she would have a problem with it and then everything would be your fault. I could be completely misjudging her behavior but I am trying to look at it from a woman's view and also having empathy for you. She isn't Mrs. Perfect... she needs to know what is upsetting you as well.

It looks like it is coming down to having communication problems with her; she isn't being clear on what she wants. She and/or you *assume* she/you know what the other is thinking and you both react and say things that are consistently misunderstood. Either the messages you two communicate are NOT effective/clear and/or the message is misunderstood by the recipient. It is basic communication you both need to work on... finding effective ways of communicating without responding with ego or emotions. She isn't taking any personal steps of HER OWN to self improvement and personal growth/actualization. It isn't JUST you that needs work... it is both of you. Kudos to you, because you are taking steps to be better for her... I would just like to say one thing. Ensure that you are going to therapy and doing all these things for YOU and NOT just for her! You change and grow because you genuinely want to make your life better for YOU. At this point you can only control and concentrate on your own circumstances and current life expectations of yourself. You can't concern yourself with her and what she is doing - this is only going to drive you crazier!

Listen, you sound like a really sweet guy and smart... you miss your wife; you want to work things out. It takes two to make a marriage work... 100/100 NOT 50/50 you are not the only one who needs therapy... honestly, if anything - she needs therapy. She sounds very emotionally unstable and not to mention self absorbed - she isn't really all that concerned about how YOU feel but rather how SHE feels.

You need to find out where she wants to go in life (personal goals - personal mission statement) and in the marriage (what you BOTH want - it isn't just about her - it is about you and your happiness as well).

[dustdevil]

Wife came over today. She had said it was okay for me to see other women/have female friends.

I had briefly trolled the singles ads, and connected with an old female friend. At first I was desperate for physical affection. Now I've grown out of that, and I just want FRIENDS. I thought I wanted another relationship to fill that hole. Now the hole went away, and it doesn't need filling. If anything, all I want is strictly platonic.

Wife came over after work. 3rd week she's come over the day before therapy to do small talk or whatever. I briefly talked on the phone with her Thursday and Friday, just small talk, and got off the phone quickly (within 10 minutes).

Against all relationship advice, I told her that I thought I wanted to date, but realized I don't, and I'm not ready for another relationship, it wouldn't be fair for anyone. I don't *need* another person in my life right now (except the wife). I told her that if I'm going to continue on with working on our marriage, that if I have any self respect, then I'm going to expect the same from her.

She told me she's dating someone else. Arggghh. Pretty sure it's the same guy that she cheated on me with. The same guy that she said in therapy that she'd 'not talk to anymore'.

I told her after we divorce, that I'm not going to be 'still friends' with her, that once she's out of my life, I'm not going to talk to her for at least a few years, if ever again. It's not healthy to keep re-opening old wounds.

I told her if she has no intention of working on this relationship, then to tell me, so that we can move on. She told me 'it's over' (between us).

Then she proceeded to cry for about an hour, while I comforted her. She says she knows that the other guy is poison. That it will take her years to find another good relationship. That she feels that her life is a trainwreck waiting to happen, and everyone can see it, but she feels powerless to change course (I interpret this as how she's throwing everything away). She said a bunch of things, I don't remember it all. She doesn't know what she wants.

Then she said she had to go, but before she left, I told her that I'm an eternal optimist, and before she goes, she needs to set me straight or confirm what she said before. She said she wanted to work on things, then that she was confused, then a bunch of other stuff, and never gave me a straight answer if she wants to work on things. I told her I'll make that decision very easy for her. If you don't know if you want to work on things, then give up and move on.

She said she has to go home and think about things, and apologized for not giving me a straight answer, and will give me a call tomorrow with a decision. She's not sure if she's going to therapy tomorrow.

Soooo. To summarize, I put my foot down. Told her she can't date some other guy and hold onto me at the same time, and that she has to make her mind up on what she wants, or I'll make it real easy for her.

I think I broke her 'safety net', of me as the fallback if/when things don't work out with this other guy. I can forgive and forget all the hurt that she's caused, but I needed to show some self respect and set some boundaries on what I'm willing to tolerate.

Wish me luck. I just had to post to get this off my chest. She just left the house 10 minutes ago and none of my friends are awake :(

[talaniman]

I don't think she has told you anything you didn't know before, and I don't think she is confused either, you just pressed her till she said something that gives you hope.

Give her what she wants, and let her go and deal with herself. Therapy alone is still a good idea.

[redhed35]

At this point she will not lead nor help,so you do it..

I believe you are right saying you have taken away her back up plan,and now she is even more confused...

However,she gave you permission to date other women,which means she knows the chances of kissing and/or having sex could be an option,and she's OK with this.

Giving you permission,gives her permission.

She's opted out.

Time for you to move on,at least to start picking up the pieces and regain some degree of peace.

I agree that therapy for you will help,and also to shift the balance of power between you and your ex wife... you lead the way now.. start the process and take one step at a time towards a new beginning.

[Jake2008]

I agree with everything the others have said.

Behave with a little more independence and confidence. Stop with the continuous show of affection for her; you are only pushing her further away.

She finds it (and you) annoying and intrusive. Two more reasons to carry on with the path she has chosen.

Not to mention that you have her parents enabling her. They should have said, "Go home and figure this out on your own, you cannot stay here."

So while you think you are doing some good to get her back, you aren't. She has a nice comfortable place with her parents, who are complicit in this situation, and she is free to do as she pleases.

Get your mind on other things, force yourself to show some confidence that you can survive without her. She'll get the message when you finally stop contacting her.

THEN she might think a little differently.

[dustdevil]

Well. We had a 2 1/2 hour phone call today before therapy. I was making lots of demands, and didn't want to take any crap. I grew balls.

Now she says she wants to commit to working on the marriage, and will ditch the other guy.

I griped during today's therapy session. Saying I don't feel loved, and it's pathetic for me to be denied a hug, and I can't respect myself if that's the case. I said it's a husbands right to receive these things from his wife.

Then therapy devolved into talking about how the wife might be depressed (I think she is) and how she needs to find hobbies and activities.

Now I feel that there's momentum. The therapist called her out on nothing changing in the last 6 weeks (when I mentioned it).

I felt large and in charge, and invited the wife over to our house to watch a movie after therapy. I pulled her closer for a hug during the movie, and she started making out with me. She let me take her shirt off, and I received oral, but her pants were a 'no zone', and I semi respected that.

Then we spooned on the floor for the rest of the movie, and I'd squeeze her tight and give her a kiss on the cheek every 5 minutes or so. She'd smile and usually kiss me back at first, but after a while, stopped showing that she enjoyed it.

It's like a feedback loop. I need to feel re-assured that she enjoys being cuddled, and so I'll do it again later, and then she might seem like she doesn't enjoy it, so I want to make her feel better, so I'll give her MORE affection. Repeating the cycle. She never said anything however.

Need to go on another date with her outside the house or something every other time so that she doesn't think I'm just doing it for the physical pleasures.

[dustdevil]

Argh.

This separation thing is driving me nuts. Okay she's committed to saving the marriage.

What now? What is the end game? What's the point of the separation?

We've had time to reflect. We know what the issues are. She's going to work on trying to find hobbies and things that make her happy, and to not be as depressed. I'm going to work on my communication. We came up with a codeword 'banana' for whenever someone does something the other doesn't appreciate.

We've practiced for the big game, but the game never comes.

What's the end game here. My wife is buying a mattress to replace the airbed she's sleeping on in her parents house. I got her to agree to hang out tomorrow at her parents house since she has the day off work.

How is being apart healthy at all? We're supposed to 'find ourselves'. I know who I am, I know what makes me happy, I know what my faults are and I know how to fix them.

Just this whole stalled limbo thing. If I don't contact her at all, then I don't feel any progress has been made. She hasn't progressed at all in the 6 weeks that she's been away, and I doubt anything will be different next week, or the week after.

If I contact her too much, I'm pushing her away.

On the other hand, oxytocin and all those hormones that bring people together requires PHYSICAL contact and affection.

If I were to not contact her for 3 months, would she just wake up one day and say "hey, I'm going to move back in with my husband!'. I doubt it.

Therapy seems too short on time, and that we discuss feelings and stuff, but it doesn't feel like progress most of the time. What we discussed is quickly forgotten, and there's not really any homework for us to get back together.

If I keep pushing her to hangout, that will likely push her away, but the alternative is to drift apart. Where is the middle ground?

[Jake2008]

Separation is not necessarily a bad thing, unless it goes on too long, and becomes too comfortable. Being apart to reflect, and try to work on issues without living under the same roof can very well have positive effects, if, and I mean if, the goal is mutual between the two of you. That being to get back together and save the marriage.

I'm not getting the impression that both of you are on the same page, and your counsellor should be getting to the point where goals are on the table, so you can work out the details of how to get there.

It is also unfortunately true, that sometimes, by the time marriage counselling starts, there are too many insurmountable problems, and one or the other party, is not willing or able to overcome them.

I find it odd that she's replacing a mattress at her parents house. Sounds like one of the goals isn't to return home and tackle issues with you. She wants the comfort of her parents, and their home, and keep the marriage on simmer.

Do the two of you have any agreeable goals? A plan, or any commitments to each other to work with the therapist?

[dustdevil]

I got a very vague commitment from her. To 'work on the marriage'. But there's nothing concrete, and nothing besides 'go to therapist once a week'.

I was expecting her to be at work today, so I was making a nice corned beef dinner to invite her over. I invited her over, but the response I got is that she's mattress shopping, and won't be on this side of town today.

The only goal from the therapist for her, is to find hobbies for herself.

Frustrated, I came up with a list of questions today that I'm going to demand answers to tomorrow. I want clear goals, action plans, and something that I can see working towards. Just passing time is NOT a goal and is what's pissing me off. The mattress thing also upsets me.

Here's the list, apologies for the length.

How will you show commitment this week?

How will I show commitment this week?

What level of commitment do you need to see this week?

What level of commitment do I need to see this week?

What are we trying to accomplish by being in separate houses?

How will we know when we've accomplished those things?

What do you need before you're ready?
What do I need before I'm ready?

What do you need from me right now?
What do I need from you right now?
-Affection
-Love
-Commitment

How will you meet my needs?

How will I meet your needs?

What goals should you be working on?
-Saying Banana when I upset you
-Finding happiness (through hobbies or?? )

What goals should I be working on?
-Empathsizing
-Valuing your opinion
-Making you feel important

What's the end game. What needs to be met before we live under the same roof.

What will we work on this week?

How will we work on or practice what we've learned

What pace do we need?

How much time should we talk on the phone per week?

How much time should we hang out in person per week?

How often should we be intimate per week? How much do I need? How much do you need?

What our the intimacy boundaries?

How much non intimate time per week?

What is hurting our relationship right now?
-Intimacy with others
-Jealousy, nights out at the bar

What is helping our relationship right now?

How much time do you feel you'll need?

How will next week be different than this week?