[jmjoseph]

She said it wouldn't be fair if she told me what she wanted. It was utter crap, and she wouldn't tell me what she wanted for the first 3 weeks that she was off and on leaving. She wouldn't tell me why she was leaving me. Maybe she didn't want to have a reason, I dunno.

My in-laws still love me. Her mom thinks that the other guy should be out of the picture, but this is their only child, so they also don't want to be pushy, and want to be supportive, so I don't think they offer real advice on what she should do, just emotional support.

I've called her mom twice while she is there to get some advice, etc, and her mom just has alot of 'i don't know' answers.

I'm going to stick with no contact, at least for today. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. I'm just going to assume that she's gone, and is trying to avoid hurting my feelings as much. My female friend who's also going through divorce says that women can't just drop other men out of guilt, they have to play the entire thing through, so she figures that my wife won't stop seeing this other guy regardless of what she says.

Your friend sounds very smart. I'm sorry, but your wife seems too selfish to even worry about. This is not the behavior of a married person who promised to be there "for better or for worse" .

I would plan on leaving her myself. You're still young, go find someone more considerate.

Unfortunately, I too, think your wife is still seeing this other guy. In her eyes she is dating again. Why else would the parents want him out of the picture?

Yes, for me, it would be NO CONTACT, except being served divorce papers. And like I said, there would be a huge yard sale, of all of her stuff. "CHEAP AS DIRT" would read the ad in the paper.

[jham123]

NOno... JMJ is steering you correctly but allow me to add.

This is about control and Manipulation. Don't ever allow someone to tell you that they cannot love you unless you change ANYTHING about yourself.

You are who you are and if you listen to the wrong woman, you could wind up eviscerated and miserable with yourself.

You need to stand tough and be the man at this point. Begging her to stay when she has committed these despicable acts will never win her back.

She needs to see you as the man she fell in love with. Strong and masculine. If she has problems communicating with you, she may need therapy to rectify that fault in her.

This is a crossroads in your manhood and the marriage. By all means use contraceptive if you get near her. The next page in the play book is of course her getting pregnant.

[Cat1864]

Quote by jham123;
She needs to see you as the man she fell in love with. Strong and masculine. If she has problems communicating with you, she may need therapy to rectify that fault in her.

The same man who didn't comfort her when her grandfather died? The same man who wouldn't listen to how her day went because he knew it would be bad?

A marriage is about compromise and, yes, that means both partners sometimes have to make changes to make the marriage work.

That does not mean I condone her behavior. However, I don't condone his either.

dustdevil, if you want your marriage to work out, do not go into your counseling session with the mindset that you don't have to do anything or change anything, and that the counselor should be a divorce lawyer. If you think that way, then end your marriage NOW!!

[Gemini54]

Cat, I do agree (had to spread the rep).

In this case immaturity and stubbornness seem to be playing a big part in the dénouement of this relationship.

Dustdevil I don't think it's a good idea to ring her parents and ask them to intervene on your behalf. It does sound as if your wife is punishing you or taunting you and it does not sound as if you have the understanding or the skills to reach her.

By all means be strong and masculine, but understand that communication goes both ways. Your marriage is in trouble and you have played a part in creating that dynamic.

Do not avoid the counseling. It's now your chance to learn about yourself and to grow from this challenge.

[dustdevil]

Thanks. I've been looking forward to going to the counseling.

Through my pain, and the comfort I have received from friends, I have a better understanding of empathy.

I full know that I have things that I need to work on, and have not been in denial of that fact.

I don't know if I'd go as far as give her an ultimatum yet.

[jham123]

Giving her an ultimatum is just another form of Manipulation. You need to stop trying to control her and she you... Like I said, this is all about control in the marriage.

Stop.

You be you and be a man about it. THERE IS NOTHING YOU COULD DO that would justify her running into the arms of another man. Get a grip in this... and don't let go.

Do you need work to mature? Could you be better as a man? Is there room for you to be a better person?

SURE THERE IS... but whatever... you don't deserve to have to beg a woman back that has stepped out on YOU.

That is the point here. You work on you and become a better person. But HER? Becoming a better person may be NOT being with a spouse that uses others as a threat to get her way or to tell you that you must change.

And last, I'll never relent from this. A person loves you or they don't... it is emotional abuse for one to state that they cannot show you love or affection unless you change. They married the person that you are... Do people change during marriage? We all do as we grow older... not one person is the same as they were when they turned 21... so no, The game of "I can't love you until you change [X] about yourself is nothing more than manipulation.

[WyoMom]

I know where you are - my husband left me thinking he would be happier without me after years of a marriage that had communication problems. He cheated, he belittled me, I belittled him, we both were a mess. I agreed to a divorce and then retracted... emotions are just ever changing when this kind of thing happens.

Finally, I decided we needed to separate. I wrote him a letter and made a copy for myself. It said "I'm not asking for a divorce. I love you and will welcome you home when you are 100% committed to our marriage. However, I will not share you with another person and I'm not going to be lied to or dishonored in my own home. I'm sorry that I made mistakes, I regret them and I will be praying and working on those things in therapy. If you choose not to come home I will be sad but I will move on." That letter spelled it out. No chit-chat necessary. We both needed that letter - for him to know where I stood and for ME to know where I stood when I wanted to cave in.

I held him to that standard. We did not talk unless it had to do with the children or money. If he called me "just to talk" I said I was not ready to talk and hung up the phone. I was not mean, but I was allowing myself to heal. A separation needs time to work. You won't win her back by begging or stalking her. You will win her back when she sees you doing the right thing every day - going to counseling (on your OWN, you have issues to work through), going to work, finding ways to stay busy and starting to smile again.

So... the result. During our separation I had learned so much about myself, how I was not a loving wife, how I had done things that hurt my husband even though I had not intended to. He needed work too - and he had counseling on his own after a bit. After almost 5 months of being apart he had a breakthrough moment with God and he called and said he was so sorry for the things he had done and wanted to fix the mess we had made. I had the 100% commitment that I had asked for. Anything less would not have worked. We reconciled and it's been 2 1/2 years since he came home. We still have to work on things, we need to be careful to not fall back into old patterns. But we talk more, we listen more, and we honor each other in all things.

Your marriage can survive this - but you need to get in to see a therapist to help you work out why you did not meet her needs, why did you allow your marriage to be communication-less, how do you work through the infidelity issues...

You've been together 11 years - it's worth a year to try to fix it. It can work...

[dustdevil]

Thanks.

Well, Tuesday we went to the movies, and dinner afterwards, and I told her that I wish she would come back home, to which she replied 'No I can't do that'. I felt terrible. We then cuddled and made out in the parking lot, and then she stopped and told me she's not depositing her checks into our bank account anymore. We both left feeling terrible. I called her afterwards saying that we left on the wrong foot and I told her I love her, and I miss her, and I'm glad she's going to therapy tomorrow.'. She said the same.

At therapy, it was pretty much '20 questions' for the intake session. I didn't learn anything new. Therapist said that next week we'll work on back and forth communication.

After therapy, we sat in the parking lot cuddling. I told her how happy it makes me to hold her in my arms. We made out (She initiated) and then she left.

The next day I asked if we could hang out after work. We went to goodwill to go clothes shopping for her for a party. I felt like I was walking on eggshells and couldn't really get beyond casual conversation (Like you'd have with a stranger). She invited me to go to dinner with her, and we ate and smiled at each other the entire time. I apologized for being retarded when she was emotionally hurt at her grandpas funeral, and I told her I realize through calling my parents, that both of them are incapable of empathy, and that I don't want to grow up to be like them. She told me she's glad to hear that. We cuddled and she initiated making out again.

Her parents went out of state this weekend, and she was going to go with them, which would make things easy on me, because I wouldn't have to worry about trying to hang out with her. She ended up staying behind. I asked her if she'd like to hang out, and she says she'll call me tomorrow.

I think I've made it clear that I'm committed to fixing my problems. We both told the therapist that we need to work on my empathy. It just hurts me when I see that there is this 'wall' between us.

When I see this 'wall' between us, it makes it hard for me to just 'be myself', and even though I want to hang out with her, I'm far from confident when we do hang out (Although I try to be confident).

Why is there a wall? Why did it seemingly pop up overnight, and what will make it go away? Everyone keeps telling me 'give it time'. I'd feel much better if I knew that we just hit the 'pause' button on our relationship to figure things out, rather than seeing all this separation as emotional distancing. I'm scared of her slipping away, although I have no reason to suspect that. I also feel that we can't do any healing until this 'wall' is gone, but I suspect the wall can't be gone until we emotionally heal, and emotional healing can't be done in 'light conversation'.

The uncertainty kills me! I was feeling REALLY good because I was certain there was nothing I could do while she was out of state, and then as soon as I heard she stayed behind that uncertainty came back up on what I should do and it's driving me nuts.

[Cat1864]

I don't think the wall popped up over-night. I think you just didn't see it being built up. It happens. What matters is that you are trying to tear it down now. Unfortunately, it will take both of you to make it disappear.

I know you are scared and unsure about what is going on and what she is thinking. Hopefully, in the next session there will be more clarification about where each of you see the relationship going.

I just hope she wants to work on it as much as you do.

[dustdevil]

Well, she ended up not going out of state with her parents. I asked her Saturday if she'd like to hang out, and she said she'd call me Sunday morning.

We went today to the zoo for 4 hours. We'd hold hands, and I'd give her the occasional hug or kiss on the cheek. We sat down to smoke next to a grass field with lots of children playing, and she started to cry. I asked her what's wrong and she didn't answer. I asked if it was the kids, and she said it was.

While I wouldn't mind having kids, I never obsess over having them. I told my wife that once I get a stable job and we buy a house that we can have kids then.

I told her that therapy will also help me to become a better parent.

She said "I don't want to go to therapy anymore", and I told her that I don't believe that. She said 'then stop talking about it', and so I agreed, and we got something to eat and continued around the zoo as if nothing had happened.

I said I was going to get some dinner afterwards, and she said that she's going to go straight to her parents house.

I called her on her drive back to her parents house, and asked if I'd see her on Wednesday (at the therapist), she said she didn't know. She said that her heart is not in this relationship anymore, and 'what's the point of going to therapy'. I told her that I think that therapy will help us develop that.

She thinks that because we don't have common interests that we shouldn't be together. I'm an engineer, and I talk about geeky stuff a lot, and I think I bore her. I've avoided talking about that stuff on our recent dates however. She said the discussion about her heart not being in it is best saved for therapy, and I'm convinced she's going to go because she said that.

Ouch. I always figured that kids weren't something that guys obsessed over with desire, but that it's one of those things that you decide that you'll have them when you're ready, and when they come, they'll change your life. I always thought that women were wired to have an urge for children, and the husbands role is to be supportive of that.

I'm torn. It's hard to 're-bond' on our 'dates' because of walking on eggshells, and I probably lack the confidence during them, although I try my best to be confident on our dates.

In the last month or two she had asked me to tell her the things I loved about her, and I could come up with a handful of things, so today I sat down for an hour, and made a list of 50 things that I loved about her and e-mailed it to her.

I'm an emotional rollercoaster. I'll go from feeling healed, and then feel like crying the next moment (usually after talking to her). It's a crapshoot on whether I'll feel better or worse after talking or hanging out with her. Right now I'm kind of numb, but think that I should be crying instead.

[talaniman]

Leave this needy baby alone.

Stop dating and small talk

No more cuddling, or making out.

If she wants to stop the therapy, let her.

You better let your female know either you talk or leave each other alone.

Somewhere your going to have to take a stand, and she will have to make a decision, and she has to be willing to work with you, or drop the BS and let you go.

Limbo is not a place to be, and will accomplish nothing.

Don't think for one minute you are blameless because you never paid attention enough to address issues that we all face. One thing I do know is either you work together through honest communications, or you don't.

That sappy game your playing only keeps false hope and emotions all stirred up, but neither of you is working at it.

The bottom line is always establish dialog between you, even if you have to make up a new language, and being tired of this emotional roller coaster is an honest expression of your feelings, and if she doesn't want to play any more, leave her alone.

I haven't even addressed her seeing other guys yet, but you get nothing done being separated, and playing kissy face, and talking about nothing.

[dustdevil]

Thanks.

We went to therapy Wednesday, and did a conversation excersise, and got some feelings out of the way regarding parenthood and some other things. She seemed very responsive to this and agreed to another day of therapy.

Therapist said that she is the 'pace car' and will need to set the pace for our interactions. Unfortunately the therapist wasn't aware that we still weren't living together until the last 2 minutes or so of therapy.

She said she won't come back home until she's committed, because she doesn't want to have one foot in and out of the door.

I told her as much as it pains me, and as much as I want to pick up the phone and text or call, that I know that I need to let her initiate and control the pace, and won't be trying to talk her into any dates or anything.

I haven't received any calls or contact outside of therapy in the last 4 days, but I feel a lot better now, and am once again hopeful. As long as I can avoid screwing anything up until next therapy session.

[talaniman]

This is a good time to get your own act together, as its more important to have your own path to be on and not wait for someone else to decide what they want. I'm sure you can find ways to improve your own lot, and focus on you.

I have a feeling you'll discover many things that have affected your thinking, and action, that you can do for yourself.

Worrying about what another will do will sap your strength, and distract you greatly from your task.

[dustdevil]

Thanks.

One of the issues in therapy was fatherhood. I had always told her we could have kids after I get successful job and house. Yesterday I realized that women's biological clocks start counting down at 30-35, and this put things into a new perspective, that she can't wait until a 'perfect situation' occurs, and that's she's scared because of that.

I wrote her a letter telling her how I felt about that, and how I now understood her feelings regarding that and sense of urgency, and told her that I would be okay with having kids before having the perfect job/house.

Later on she said that she doesn't want to have kids with me. She gave me the 'Lets be friends' thing.

When I try to push her to working on things, she backs off, if I give her the ultimatum of 'lets talk or lets go our own ways' she says 'okay, then lets get a divorce now!'

But if she says 'we can still be friends right?' and I tell her 'no, not if you leave me', she comes back to me a bit.

She's scared of losing me, but not sure what she wants, and all I can do is make things worse...

[Fr_Chuck]

If you wait "till" that time never comes, there is always never enough and the more we make the more we normally spend

I strongly recommend "love languages" by Chapman it has worked wonders in many couples

[talaniman]

Stop pushing, or pulling, or whatever your doing, and let her make her decisions without your influence. For now just the therapy is quite enough contact.

As for this fatherhood thing, let it go, You ain't there yet. And for the record, doesn't matter how well you plan, or what the situation, babies happen when they do, but it does explain the making out, without going further.

[dustdevil]

So I continued on the no contact. Last contact was briefly on Saturday morning and then she contacted me today on Tuesday to come over and talk in person.

I was convinced she was coming over to finalize the divorce. At times it seems like she was heading that way in conversation. She finally said that she's going to therapy again tomorrow. I asked if she was going for 'us' since she said she was going for her benefit last time. She said that she can't say she's going to therapy for us. That she wants to know how she can fix things so that it doesn't happen in future relationships.

It's hard for her to accept that I want to change. I've given every indication that I want to change, but she doesn't think that people can change. I want us to deal with issues, instead of ignoring them. To call B.S. on one another when something hurts us, instead of letting it fester.

She doesn't feel it's right for me to be willing to change my behavior. I think it's perfectly acceptable. I've been selfish, etc.

I'm an engineer, and do a lot of geeky hobbies. She occasionally has hobbies, but generally doesn't do anything at home except watch TV and play video games on occasion. She feels we're not right for each other because it's hard to strike up a conversation. Like when I bring up something technical, she doesn't care, and if she were to ask me about the color of something, that I don't care.

I feel that the issue is that we're both 'boring' to each other. I told her that I think the solution is for us to go out and 'get a life' and do things together. When we normally go on dates, it's usually a movie, or to the same restaurant. We pretty much have had the same dates for the past 2 years. It's hard to strike up engaging conversations with one another.

She mentioned a few months back, that we should both join the local art theater, and I thought it was a great idea, and I keep bringing it up as something that we should do, as it would be something that we could both enjoy doing together. She seems to resent it when I mention doing activities together, and thinks that people should just 'get along' and have interesting conversations together, otherwise they just weren't meant to be, regardless of external stimulus, while I think that we have 'cabin fever'...

We've been together for almost 8 years, and moved out of state 5 years ago, and never rebuilt a network of friends up here in this new state. ( I have one friend that moved with us, so I visit him ). I think it's not unusual for couples to become conversationally boring to each other.

Is having to force conversation with your spouse, instead of it coming naturally really that unusual after being together so long? Is it something that can be worked on? She doesn't seem to think so.

I still can't get her to say that she's going to therapy to fix OUR relationship, but at least she's still going.

[UnBeautifuL]

The only thing I don't like in all of these replies are " IF you go to marriage counseling with an open mind and willingly, there MAY be a chance to save your marriage" Really? Seriously? When two people WANT to be together, they will stay together. Being married isn't about getting divorced as soon as you hit obstacles, its about getting through them together, and being stronger because of them.

[dustdevil]

The hardest part is that I tell her that I want to change, and she asks why I didn't in the past when she brought it up.

To be honest, I think I was immature, or just wanted to ignore problems. I told her that just like with alcoholics and born again christians, that they need to hit rock bottom before they can rebuild. I told her that this separation is me hitting rock bottom. I can't apologize enough for the misdeeds I had done in the past, but she keeps pointing to prior actions, and I can't seem to get it across that the change happens NOW and in the future, that I can't change the past, but that I can learn from it, and be better from it.

I also pointed at her problems when asked. She would go into the bedroom and sulk on the bed, obviously displeased, and I'd come in, and ask her what's wrong, and she'd always reply 'nothing', and then I'd do the only thing I knew to do, and try to cheer her up by doing something goofy or by hugging her.

Or when we're talking about something that upset her, and try to clarify by asking questions, she'll get upset, as if I'm 'too stupid to figure it out'.

[UnBeautifuL]

Does she tell you she is upset when you've done something wrong? Or is she ignoring it and you, but yet still being upset with you? Sounds like she has a LOT of growing up to do as well.

I held things against my husband constantly, then I realized - if he asked how to fix it, I would reply, I don't know - so how can I expect him to do it? If I don't tell him what he said hurt my feelings, and get angry - he can't fix anything because I refused to tell him. What does your wife like doing? Movie? Dancing? Maybe you should set a couple weekend days a month just doing that..