[newday]

There is a difference in turning your back on someone and allowing yourself to be controlled and manipulated. Just because I'm a father does not mean I deserve to be taken advantage of. Children need to obey their parents and respect them first. There is a normal chain of command that works in normal society and also family relationships. The issue's we are having today is there are too many parents that have the mindset that they owe their children something but at some point a child becomes an adult and needs to have age appropriate behavior. The fact that I waiting to get divorced until my children were over 18 should say a lot of the type of person I'am

[Gemini54]

There is a difference in turning your back on someone and allowing yourself to be controlled and manipulated. Just because I'm a father does not mean I deserve to be taken advantage of. Children need to obey their parents and respect them first. There is a normal chain of command that works in normal society and also family relationships. The issue's we are having today is there are too many parents that have the mindset that they owe their children something but at some point a child becomes an adult and needs to have age appropriate behavior. The fact that I waiting to get divorced until my children were over 18 should say a lot of the type of person I'am

I agree with you newday, this is not a 'normal' family dynamic, and there are a number of difficult choices involved. There are people that have had no experience with the manipulation and control you describe, and may think that your daughter's behavior is just simply a matter of adjustment by all parties. Sadly, it is not so.

Your daughter is an adult and is capable of making her own choices now. She can choose to adjust to your new situation, or not. She has chosen to make your life difficult and although you can be understanding, ultimately, you cannot allow this to affect the new life you are forging. That is your choice.

[newday]

Thank You Gemini , the sad fact is very few understand how bad living with a BPD type person is and the effect they have on everyone around them. If you take a person like my ex and then add a little religion just to be dangerous and then you might begin to imagine the horrors I've delt with. Many people still think maybe Hitler just need some counseling. People that never went through this do not know about the dark side of the human mind. They read and write on these cute sites and reada few books and think they know.

[artlady]

They read and write on these cute sites and reada few books and think they know.

This *cute site* as you refer to us has helped countless people and I believe you have been given quality opinions.

You may not agree with everyone but that is the nature of this open type of forum.

I would remind you that people here volunteer their time for no pay and often no gratitude.

You did come here after all and people did spend time answering you,I for one feel a tad insulted when you dismiss us as a *cute site*,it has a very derogatory ring to it.

[newday]

I have found this site very helpful and as you can see I'm using it. I have tried others in the past and did not find them useful.
The world is full of many arm chair psychologist indeed and we need to take any advice and weigh it with many factors.
The point I was trying to make is if you read material on the boderline personality disorder and begin to understand how some people have lived then you can comment on why certain actions must be taken to protect yourself from these types of people. I'm truly sorry for offending you. It was not intentional.

[holyangel17]

There is a difference in turning your back on someone and allowing yourself to be controlled and manipulated. Just because I'm a father does not mean I deserve to be taken advantage of. Children need to obey their parents and respect them first. There is a normal chain of command that works in normal society and also family relationships. The issue's we are having today is there are too many parents that have the mindset that they owe their children something but at some point a child becomes an adult and needs to have age appropriate behavior. The fact that I waiting to get divorced until my children were over 18 should say a lot of the type of person I'am

I do agree with you in some aspects! I just think that some of your comments such as if you were to divorce your new wife, you could never forgive your daughter. It seemed like you already did choose your wife over your daughter. And, waiting till she was 18 to get re-married? Really? U thinks that makes a difference. I get it! Here in USA, once you are 18, you are an independent adult but that still does not affect your daughter's emotions and feelings towards you!

The way you criticized your daughter is still wrong. She might be at fault but you still should never talk bad about her especially to the public. That is between you and her! and you do need to DEAL with the problem than put all the blame on her and wash your hands clean! You as a father needs to try to work it out, if she does not budge, give her space to realize her mistakes...

And all the people who says about her having narcistic personality, really? U know her enough to say that? I believe one of the problems this world faces is that fathers not being around!

[newday]

One more point. If you go online and look up spousal abuse more time than not you will find that men are the abusers. The law firms and court systems are being trained finally to recognize relationships in which the wife is actually the abuser. The husband becomes a co-dependant enabler of the bahavior and the children become very confused individuals. Once the pattern is in place it is very difficult to reverse. The main issue is that abusive people typically do not know they have a problem so they do not seek help. If they seek help they somehow convince the therapist that they are not the problem. These people can trick almost anyone. I have seen this first hand in many situations with my own dealings with these people.

[artlady]

One more point. If you go online and look up spousal abuse more time than not you will find that men are the abusers. The law firms and court systems are being trained finally to recognize relationships in which the wife is actually the abuser. The husband becomes a co-dependant enabler of the bahavior and the the children become very confused individuals. Once the pattern is in place it is very difficult to reverse. The main issue is that abusive people typically do not know they have a problem so they do not seek help. If they seek help they somehow convince the therapist that they are not the problem. These people can trick almost anyone. I have seen this first hand in many situations with my own dealings with these people.

Abusers are classic manipulators,that is part and parcel of their ability to charm their victim back into believing in them again and again.
The good news is there is a life after abuse and as a survivor myself I can assure you,it only gets better.

[holyangel17]

Like seriously dude... If you were the victim of abuse, I do symphasize with you! Nobody deserves to be treated like that!! However, your wife is out of the equation right? I mean you are re-married to someone else, I know it is difficult but for your daughter's sake, you should put that behind you. Besides, this is about what is between you and your daughter! Your wife was abusive and manipulative? Well, you should really get some professional help to get over it otherwise, you might not be able to have a relationship with your daughter all. You cannot categorize your daughter being like that! She is her own person and it seems like you are taking your feelings down on the wrong person.

I am not going to talk about your wife because that is not your main concern here. Your main concer in is your daughter.

I think you should definitely communicate with her rather than having a negative point of view on her actions and thoughts. If there are no changes, you should give her time and let her adjust to the changes. If you still act with mercy and kindness towards her, she will not feel much threatened. She needs her space which does not mean you can just point fingers.

You are a grown adult and you need to be able to sit your wife down and let her know that your daughter is a part of you and she needs to respect that. I do not think either your new wife or your daughter should create problems.

That is where you draw the line, and make boundaries. If you feel like there is no way your wife and your daughter can get along, then have a separate relationship with each of them.

Your daughter is 20 and I'm guessing she's living with you? You can help her find a place and help her to settle and still find time for her. Just father and daughter time! Your relationship with your new wife should be separate so each person, (both your daughter and wife can breathe and have personal space so conflict could be avoided.)

About the abusive thing with ex-wife. If it something you still have not moved on with and is effecting you, you really need to get help. Just because she's your ex-wife does not mean she's the past, she's still your daughter's mother so both of you guys need to respect each other and be able to communicate in peace!!

[Gemini54]

People that have not had direct experience with BPD/NPD often have difficulty understanding the toxic and pervasive extent of the abuse and its effect on every area of your life. (I used to be like you and shared your opinion that communication would solve all problems.)

These people do not respect 'peace' or 'communication' or other people's boundaries. At all! Ever! They take advantage of 'mercy' and 'kindness' and use it against you.

I would also suggest that if the OP were a woman and had been seriously abused by her husband, that you would not just tell her to 'get over it' and 'get some help'.

If you re-read the OP's post, you will find that he has already offered hinself on a silver platter to his Ex-wife and daughter, with little result except an intensification of the abuse.

No-one is suggesting he disown his daughter. We are simply suuggesting he create stronger boundaries and limit his contact until she can get her behavior under control. It's called tough love.

[jham123]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Gemini54 again.

Well Spoken Gemini... I'm not sure I would have been so eloquent so I'll just compliment you on your post.

[Gemini54]

The point about this threaded discussion is that people are able to express their opinions, just as you are.

I expressed an opinion about your post because I felt that you were limited in your understanding of the OP's position. You responded. That is a normal part of any discussion on this Forum and it is up to the OP to make up his mind whose opinion he wants to follow.

I might add that the OP is the one that has stated that his wife suffers from BPD and that his daughter is also exhibiting similar traits. I have taken my lead from his comments. No one is suggesting that he discontinue loving his daughter or disown her, but they are suggesting he place priority on saving his new marriage and create boundaries relating to his interactions with her.

The OP needs to show his daughter that he loves her, but that he won't take any $hit from her. That is the challenge.

Finally, I'd like to add that although I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist I have had a decades experience dealing with people that have BPD and NPD, so I do speak with some understanding - although I am still learning.

[holyangel17]

Finally, I'd like to add that although I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist I have had a decades experience dealing with people that have BPD and NPD, so I do speak with some understanding - although I am still learning

Lol... BPD and NPD (neither of the personality disorders) does not tie for one to be manipulative and controlling. NPD patients usually put too much pressure on themselves to make situations go their way, if something is out of their reach, they take it out on themselves not others. They feel their knowledge should be beyond their control. Most of the patients who reach this stage is due to prior conditioning such as extreme pressure to succeed either from outside sources such as parents, jobs, or inner dedication such as self dedication which becomes an obsession. (Not a stereotype: but it is common among second generation Asian Americans, certain foreign groups, and first generation college students especially among inner city kids; those listings are based on statistical analysis). BPD as well does not make the patient to be manipulative or cunning! When they are on their highs, it usually does not affect others in a negative way but still, they are not able to get things done; since, the expectations are unrealistic such as (ex: building a house within certain time) and when they are low, they view others are the cause to their problem, are very aggitated, and becomes depressed! BPD 1 and 2 deals with the stages of "high and low." If the child is manipulative, controlling, and cunning to get what she wants, most likely, she possess Anti-social personality disorder.

Lol... even though anti-social means one is not social (introvert), anti-social personality disorder does not tie to that.

I am just stating it from the symptoms! However, if that is the case, she herself needs to be evaluated by a psychologist not us (lol... ).

" No one is suggesting that he discontinue loving his daughter or disown her, but they are suggesting he place priority on saving his new marriage and create boundaries relating to his interactions with her."

I totally agree with you on forming a boundary. However, limiting interactions is not forming boundary; he still can speak to her on daily basis or however he does, but he needs to separate his new wife from his daughter and should not cave into whatever she says. If she becomes out of control because he does not listen to her commandments or whatever, then give her space! That should be the last option though...

I strongly believes she just feels threatened due to his new wife.

Did she act out the same way to her father before he became involved with the new women? His wife might have BP but that does not necessarily mean his daughter could have it too, that is an over generalized statement. It is true BP is inherited but that is not something the father should judge since, he is only judging based on the recent issues. The daughter is acting out (right after he gets re-married) so, just assume "Oh, she probably have BP like her mother!"?? Seriously, how rational is that??

The only thing we could conclude is she is being manipulative and controlling which is based from the father's statements.

[this8384]

I'm still waiting for examples of how the daughter is "manipulative" and "controlling." This clearly is putting a strain on his new marriage, yet he can't tell us anonymously what's going on?

[newday]

Wow ! I never expected all of this. First off I'm not qualified to diagnose my daughter and label her with a borderline personality disorder. I was simply in the context of this forum using terms to explain to some of the people that it appeared understood what I was trying to say. My hope and prayer for my daughter is that she becomes a strong successful woman, I will never disown my daughter never have. I want to learrn what I could in a healthy way to deal with her and not let myself be manipulated. As far as examples of the manipulation ? Well there are many. I'm simply at this point wondering what it is that folks are trying to determine from examples. Is it that they do not believe that things have occurred to justify me trying to learn how to deal with a 20 year old that totally disrespects her father since middle school ? If I gave a really good example would they then look at what I have been struggling with and give me new advice because they "believe or see the situation now". The point is some people have wisdom and compassion and some do not. Some people have a desire to argue endless points when they forget what they are arguing about. So let me break it down. There are many emotional and psychological disorders. It matters to some what box to put a person into. What matters to me is living a healthy life and caring for the loved ones around me and to see them act and behave in a manner that is socially acceptable. My daughrer resents that her father has a new wife and is struggling to cope with the fact that her mother is very unstable and is caught in the middle and she has played us both to her advantage in many cases. So I want to learn how I can have boundries that make sense so I do not make the same mistakes.

[J_9]

Newday,

We ask for examples so that we can get a better picture of what is going on. It may help us in giving you more accurate advice.

[J_9]

I would like a Moderator to look at all of this.

I'm watching closely. ;)

[holyangel17]

Wow ! I never expected all of this. First off I'm not qualified to diagnose my daughter and label her with a borderline personality disorder. I was simply in the context of this forum using terms to explain to some of the people that it appeared understood what I was trying to say. My hope and prayer for my daughter is that she becomes a strong succesful woman, I will never disown my daughter never have. I want to learrn what I could in a healthy way to deal with her and not let myself be manipulated. As far as examples of the manipulation ? Well there are many. I'm simply at this point wondering what it is that folks are trying to determine from examples. Is it that they do not believe that things have occured to justify me trying to learn how to deal with a 20 year old that totally disrespects her father since middle school ? If I gave a really good example would they then look at what I have been struggling with and give me new advice becuase they "believe or see the situation now". The point is some people have wisdom and compassion and some do not. Some people have a desire to argue endless points when they forget what they are arguing about. So let me break it down. There are many emotional and psychological disorders. It matters to some what box to put a person into. What matters to me is living a healthy life and caring for the loved ones around me and to see them act and behave in a manner that is socially acceptable. My daughrer resents that her father has a new wife and is struggling to cope with the fact that her mother is very unstable and is caught in the middle and she has played us both to her advantage in many cases. So I want to learn how I can have boundries that make sense so I do not make the same mistakes.

Newday! First of all, you are so... right about the topic diverging from what you actually needed. It is difficult in a thread because for some reason, one would feel like supporting one's views.

After reading this, I feel like I understand what the dilemma is. The acutal problem you stated just seemed like you are just focusing all the negatives associated with your daughter and your new wife is the one who had to point it out to you. However, after reading this, I feel like I truly understand you.

Well, I just want to say that you are a great father for being around but, do not let her take advantage of you. I do feel sorry for her that she has to go through all this especially with an unstable mother and now she has to share her father with somebody else. But, she have no right to treat you like that! You should clearly state what your expectations are and the respect you deserve! She has to understand that she is an adult and have to form her own life than holding on to you but also explain to her that you do love her and will be there for her. Tell her the instances where she manipulated you and got away with it. She might think she is clever and you do not understand that you are being manipulated. Often, stating the cause and problem alerts the "abusers" to realize that the victim is in control now. (sorry but I still hate using that word, "abuser" to describe your daughter). You have to stand up not due to pressure from your wife, but for yourself and make her realize what she is doing. Most importantly, explain to her how she is manipulating you! Tell her how it is affecting you; you never know, she might not even realize she is doing it and might be sympathetic with you!

If she is still inconsiderate and disrespectful, tell her when she's ready to act as a mature adult and change her behavior, she is more than welcome to see you again. Although, this is your last resort. If she does not change her behavior, this is all you could do!

I read that she has been doing this to you since sixth grade? Well, you are the father and she is the daughter when it comes down to it. A father is not just a friend but also an authority figure, I just do not understand why you did not address this then and take charge. I know it is the past but over time, she probably unconsciously think it is the norm to treat you like this because she was never taught not to do so.

Anyway, this is the present and I am sure that you can make a difference in her by being supportive but also being firm and putting your feet down!

[jham123]

This thread has turned absurd, Newday, sorry you are the focus of this unfortunate debacle of a thread. Usually it is not like this.

It is very evident by your post that the Ex-wife had been undermining your parental efforts early on, and that is sad. Your 20yo Daughter never learned to respect you from the early stages in life.

Yes, you are doing a very good thing by demanding that the Daughter respect you and the life you are building post BPD/NPD.

This is one lesson that many many parents neglect to give their children... they seem to think that the child will just fly out of the nest on their own when many times if the nest is warm and well stocked with food and an Xbox or Wii, the child will just stay put. In Nature, the mother bird "pushes" the baby birds out of the nest.

Some Aging human females need to be needed and therefore are reluctant to push the last child to leave the home... and empty nest is a scary thing for a ~45 year old woman with a 33 year old mindset...

Yes, the daughter needs this very powerful lesson in life... Just because you are her father does not mean anything at this point in both your lives. (Sorry AcidAngel) If the Adult Child cannot learn to behave respectfully, you can no longer spank her, you can no longer send her to her room, you can no longer put her in time out... These repercussions are what we place on "children" when they act out. An Adult of any Gender needs to learn real quickly that if they are disrespectful in society, they will be shunned... and who better to teach that lesson than a father?

[newday]

HolyAngel17, Thanks. I want you to know I read your various post and never was upset. I does not matter to me if you are old or young. The point is that you are trying to understand and for that you should be commended. I sense that you want to do the right things and when you have some knowledge you want to help others with it. Just understand that do not depend on anyone but yourself to promote your learning. In other words a smart person like yourself will gain much wisdom quickley by doing some homework on whatever it is. I will tell you though that the Bordeline Personality person is a tough one to put your mind around just by reading. I would almost venture to say that the people that understand the most lived with a person that had some of the traits.