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sheshore · Sep 23, 2009, 10:20 AM

I've been in this house for 7 years and have done wiring before e.g. added fans, updated lights etc. I am replacing all the switches and receptacles right now.

There is a wall switch at the entry to the living room which has never controlled any of the wall receptacles. The wall switch and receptacles are on the same circuit. The wall switch has one 3 wire entering it only.

There are 6 receptacles in the room. 4 have a total of two separate 3-wire romex lines coming and going. 2 have three 3-wire romex coming and going. There are no red wires anywhere. None of the receptacles have more than one black, one white and one ground attached to it. All the receptacles work, but none responds to the wall switch.

All of the brass tabs are still present so I think the original electrician screwed up or someone replaced a switch at some time.

How do I determine which of the receptacles are controlled by the wall switch?

Once I determine that, I need to pigtail two separate black hot wires onto each of the brass screws... correct?

hkstroud · Sep 23, 2009, 11:24 AM

Describe the wiring connections at the two outlets that have three cables. All black to black or is there one white connected to two blacks?

KISS · Sep 23, 2009, 11:37 AM

Hk,s on to something. Usually the switch has a black and white wire attached to it and a switch switches the hot wire, so somewhere there has to be a white connected to where a black should be.

That will occur in the outlet that's supposed to be switched. If the tab was never removed, then the switch won't work, but generally it won't screw up anything else.

What you need to do, is in all switch loops the white going to the switch needs to be recoded, i.e. it's ends taped black. Hat way there is no confusion.

The white taped black end should go to incoming power and the black will be switched power.

Stupid electrical tricks.. - wiring switched receptacle with one outlet always hot. [Archive] - Pirate4x4.Com Bulletin Board

sheshore · Sep 23, 2009, 11:39 AM

All three of the blacks are attached to a black pigtail that goes on a screw on one side and all the whites are attached to a white pigtail and attached to a screw on the other side (the side as the ground screw.

All the outlets are wired the same except two have 3 romex lines whereas the other four have just 2 lines.

The only other thing I should mention is that on one of the 3 romex outlets, the black pigtail appears that someone might have tried to paint it white. It's either covered in drywall mud or it was painted once (house is 30 years old in FL). That outlet box also seems the most likely candidate for the switched receptacle based on the room arrangement in my opinion too.

KISS · Sep 23, 2009, 11:55 AM

So, start there. Remove power

Note where the wires WERE Connected.

Try to find a cable that acts as a switch, by first measuring voltage between white and black, throwing the switch and measuring resistance in both positions. And play Bingo! Until you get it.

sheshore · Sep 23, 2009, 12:07 PM

So what is the name of the tool I need to determine which romex line goes to the switch?

KISS · Sep 23, 2009, 12:51 PM

You can use a multi-meter on the volts and ohms function. It's the first tool when troubleshooting electrical stuff. Here is a link to a selection guide: Digital Multimeters Product Selection Guide

It's the cream of the crop, so it gives you an idea of what's out there. Models from other companies such as Extech or even in the hardware store are significantly cheaper.

You can also use tone injection/tracing like with a Fluke Networks Intellitone 200 on UNENERGIzED lines. It's primarily used for network and coax applications.

There are similar tracing tools that can be used on energized 120 V circuits.

hkstroud · Sep 23, 2009, 05:42 PM

If you don't have a meter or voltage sensor how do you know that the switch is on the same circuit as the outlets? It probably is but we don't know that at this time. Get a meter or voltage sensor at Home Depot or Lowe's (about $15) then post back. We will help you figure it out.

sheshore · Sep 23, 2009, 06:46 PM

I mapped out the circuits for the whole house when I started the project. I know that everything in that room is on 14L (the left breaker on circuit 14). The switch and the receptacles work when that circuit is on and don't when it's off. That's how I know.

Thank you

sheshore · Sep 24, 2009, 09:19 AM

If the power to the switch is coming from the outlet/receptacle box, will this test work? That is what I apparently have because there is only one romex in the switch box.

hkstroud · Sep 24, 2009, 09:40 AM

At one of the receptacles with three cables.

Disconnect all black wires. Call wires A,B,C. Reconnect A and B. Check for voltage at switch and other receptacles. If no voltage at switch and you have voltage at other receptacles, unconnected cable is switch wiring. If you have voltage at switch or do not have voltage at other receptacles, connect A and C. Check switch and other receptacles. Repeat connecting B and C. You must have no voltage at the switch and have voltage at all the receptacles.

If you are not successful at the first outlet move to the second one with three cables. If you are not successful at the second outlet with three cables, you will have to go to other outlets, disconnect wires and check both switch and outlets for voltage.

sheshore · Sep 24, 2009, 04:51 PM

Thank you Mr. Stroud. Your directions worked perfectly. I have determined which of the 3 romex lines in the outlet box is the hot feed, which goes to the switch and which goes on to the subsequent outlets.

Now I'm planning to follow a diagram in my Home Depot wiring book to wire this middle of the run receptacle. Please advise if there's anything wrong with my plan below.

I need to mark the white wire attached to the single pole switch with black marker and mark it again when it enters the outlet box. I will attach it to the lower brass screw on the receptacle after breaking off the tab between both brass screws.

I will attach the white wire from the hot feed romex line to the upper left silver screw and the white wire from the romex line that continues onto the subsequent outlets to the bottom silver screw.

I will combine all the black wires in the outlet box together with a wire nut and add a black pigtail that gets attached to the upper brass screw on the receptacle.

Let me know if that sounds right. I'll be working on it in the morning.

Thanks again to everyone.

Stratmando · Sep 24, 2009, 04:54 PM

Don't know if mentioned, do you have steady power to both sides of the switch, even in the OFF position, if so, that is an indication of a tab that should have been removed. Disconnecting blacks like mentioned should help locate.

hkstroud · Sep 24, 2009, 05:26 PM

When you say "combine all of the black wires", that includes the white that you have re-identified as black.

sheshore · Sep 26, 2009, 07:36 AM

I did the above wiring scenario and I got no power at the switch and the top outlet had no power.

I then changed the wiring to place the white wire from the switch line on one of the brass screws and the black pigtail on the other (based on the drawing in the Home Depot book) and I had power at the switch and the plug with the black pigtail, but not to the plug with the white wire. In this scenario, the black and white at the switch are hot, but neither dies when the switch is turned on or off.

I changed out the receptacle to a different one, with the tab broken in both situations. And I changed out the switch to be sure also with the same result.

The same situation occurred if I reversed the black pigtail and white wire going to the switch on the outlet, whichever plug has the white wire that goes to the switch doesn't have power.

Is it possible that the white wire at the switch is hot because it's is getting power from the black that is attached to the feed in the outlet box, but then when it returns back to the plug it's damaged inside the wall causing it to be dead on arrival at the outlet?

donf · Sep 26, 2009, 07:40 AM

Can you either take a picture of the diagram you are speaking of or scan a copy of the page?

The images can be attached to this thread using the "Go Advanced" button.

Also, can you send us the title of the book and page number of the diagram you are referring to, please.

sheshore · Sep 26, 2009, 08:17 AM

The book is called
Home Depot Wiring 1-2-3 Illustrated
(install, upgrade, repair and maintaing your home's electrical system).

The diagram I followed is on page 143. You can access to review better than my photot by registering at Amazon.com. (see link to book below)

http://www.amazon.com/Wiring-1-2-3-Home-Depot/dp/069621184X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253978049&sr=1-1-spell

I will post the picture in the book in my next answer.

sheshore · Sep 26, 2009, 08:23 AM

Here is a photo from the book I referenced to do the wiring.

sheshore · Sep 26, 2009, 08:43 AM

Here are pictures of my switch and outlet. I labeled the blacks as per previous direction from Harold to identify which romex went to switch, went to other outlets and which was hot. I have three romex coming into outlet box.

hkstroud · Sep 26, 2009, 09:27 AM

How are you checking for voltage at the switch. Check for voltage between the hot and the ground. Wit the switch off there should be voltage between the ground and the black. With the switch on there should be voltage between the ground and the black and between the ground and the white. It is highly unlikely that there is a break in the line to the switch. It is even more unlikely that there is a break in only one of the wires of the cable to the switch.