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RickJ · Sep 10, 2009, 05:46 AM

I've got an apt. community of 134 apartments.

12 years ago I did the research and was told that with only 134 apartments, I was "safe" to use just one master key for them... but now I find that some of them are cut WAY too close to each other.

I found that there are some resident keys that open other apartments.

... so I'm considering re-doing everything.

The little research I've done tells me that 134 locks on 1 master IS safe... so I'm thinking that maybe our locksmith is just not using a good cut list (some are clearly just too close to each other).

So the bottom line(s):

1. Is 134 locks mastered to 1 master key safe if the generated cut list is good?
2. If so, do you know a reliable and nicely priced supplier? I currently pay $6 for the cylinder and $6 to have it mastered to my master.
3. Is there another cylinder that will fit into my Weslock housings? I don't mind changing the cylinder type if I can find a better deal with someone who can do it right...

Thanks for any input you can give.

KISS · Sep 10, 2009, 08:12 AM

I did some snooping. I have a friend who has been a locksmith for many years, but he may be overseas now.

Most locks have 5 pins and 5 cutting depths. From Weslock literature, I found that they have 5 pins, but I could not find the available number of cutting depths. Some yale cylinders have up to 9.

There's all sorts of masters. In an apartment complex, you could have one for the laundry for instance.

The cutting codes must be at least 2 apart.

14532 and 14531 isn't good. You must use 14533 or something else. 12345 is not a good combination. Neither is 55555 or 11111, so you have to be selective with you cutting combinations.

So, it looks like problem #1 would be to make a list of all the cutting codes and make sure they differ by two digits and I would guess 2 digits from at least one pin of the master key.

So, without knowing anything, that's my engineered reason.

For reference, I pick relativeky simple combo locks usually in about 20 minutes. No multiple turns.

RickJ · Sep 10, 2009, 09:16 AM

Thanks, KISS. Yes and yes and yes. I used to master all our cylinders myself, but tired of it once we acquired the big community.

I think the problem is that the guy I've had doing the mastering has just gotten lazy and stopped keeping track of what he'd done prior... so there's ones that are cut too close.

Stratmando · Sep 23, 2009, 06:59 AM

Looks like 10 depths on the Weslock:
WESLOCK|0|.330|.156
WESLOCK|1|.314|.172
WESLOCK|2|.299|.187|.030
WESLOCK|3|.283|.202
WESLOCK|4|.268|.219|.060
WESLOCK|5|.252|.234
WESLOCK|6|.236|.250|.090
WESLOCK|7|.221|.265
WESLOCK|8|.205|.281|.120
WESLOCK|9|.190|.297
Are these separate buildings? How many buildings.
If possible have the first cut be the deepest, this will make it difficult for picking. Spool or mushroom tumblers will help.
With 134 Keys, someone could jiggle around and likely open at least 1 of them. Cameras, or Fake cameras may stop some one from trying each of the doors.

RickJ · Sep 23, 2009, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Stratmando

Are these seperate buildings? How many buildings.
If possible have the first cut be the deepest, this will make it difficult for picking. spool or mushroom tumblers will help.
With 134 Keys, someone could jiggle around and likely open at least 1 of them. Cameras, or Fake cameras may stop some one from trying each of the doors.

Does number of buildings matter? The 134 apartments are in 21 buildings... with each resident door being a private entrance.

It sounds like you're saying that 134 doors on one master is a bit "loose". What, in your opinion is a maximum number of doors to have on one master (provided that the list is generated with good software)? I have no problem splitting the units so that half are on one master and the other half on another master...

Stratmando · Sep 23, 2009, 08:30 AM

I was thinking they could be grouped, and have a Master opening several buildings, and the Grandmaster to open all. Maybe a different Manufacturer for half of the buildings, or a third(seven buildings 1 manufacturer) to reduce the number of possible key depth variations.

KISS · Sep 23, 2009, 08:34 AM

Hey strat:

You do you read the numbers. Is zero closest to the bottom of the lock and 9 at the grip part of the key?

What are the three sets of numbers?

Depth? Top of triangle ? And Part that hits tumbler?

I don't know the terms.

Stratmando · Sep 23, 2009, 03:24 PM

Kiss, I borrowed from here:
Lock Picking 101 • View topic - Pin Spacing Files
Actually, some keys will have a 5 digit number stamped on key, 57227 for example, and each represents the depth, no code book needed to decypher.
If these numbers are on your locks, it is good to make numbers not readable, as someone could easily see 57227, and be able to make a key easily from that.

KISS · Sep 23, 2009, 04:57 PM

Strat:

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Stratmando · Sep 23, 2009, 06:06 PM

I will correct my above post, I mentioned the number was on the lock, it is NOT, it is on some manufacturers keys, and if key were left exposed, key can be easily duplicated, leaving yourself/someone vulnerable.
RickJ, do you have a book like this:
http://www.aerolock.com/master-key-systems/
Edit, just noticed no mention of Weslock

RickJ · Sep 25, 2009, 04:16 AM

I have a book on how to master locks - which is how I did the initial mastering.

I use key blanks and do not put the cut codes on them... It cracks me up that some manufacturers (such as Baldwin) put the cut code right on the key!

KISS · Sep 25, 2009, 07:27 AM

Never put key codes on the key,or for that matter what they open. There can be indications on the key that they are masters, sub-masters or off masters, but not things like Apt 22 or building 3.

KISS · Sep 25, 2009, 07:41 AM

Never put key codes on the key,or for that matter what they open. There can be indications on the key that they are masters, sub-masters or off masters, but not things like Apt 22 or building 3.

KISS · Sep 25, 2009, 07:50 AM

I had a key in which I know a few codes. Exterior, external doors, masters, sub-masters and off masters were clearly marked. A general area was encoded,so was facility rooms, and construction cores. I never saw a cylinder removal key.

The building number/name might be oddly encoded and so was a relaive area. Key blank grooves were on the key itself. This was a Best lock system.

Stratmando · Sep 25, 2009, 02:42 PM

Kiss, I haven't been able to find a photo of the "Control" key, but here's the cylinder, it shows the piece that holds the cylinder in place:
Notes on SFIC (Best) Interchangeable Core Locks

KISS · Sep 25, 2009, 05:07 PM

That was sooo cool.

The control key is cut to operate the outer cylinder. Nothing special. As he said, it can be found out by using the upper most cut depths. It's a single key, but it's almost like a master. It just operates a second cylinder. Neat.

Thanks bunches.

Stratmando · Dec 23, 2009, 12:03 PM

Rick and Kiss, Have you seen this yet. You can change key quickly with this, pretty cool, Probably Expensive?:
Smart Key Versus

KISS · Dec 23, 2009, 01:08 PM

Battery? Energy Harvesting? RFID? Confused.

http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewtopic.php?t=29323

Fr_Chuck · Dec 23, 2009, 01:13 PM

A little late and just an opinion, I normally have always done one master per building, in the long run if there is a issue with a missing master due to maintenance or other issues, not the larger issues. But again that is just me

Stratmando · Dec 23, 2009, 04:11 PM

Kiss, don't know why link is not showing for you, this is the link on the spacing:
Lock Picking 101 • View topic - Pin Spacing Files
The Smart key link has to be clicked on, should be showing in blue?